Bob Kennedy needed to lose weight...I mean, that guy had no muscle definition. Nasty. Mills is much better than B. Kennedy.
Bob Kennedy needed to lose weight...I mean, that guy had no muscle definition. Nasty. Mills is much better than B. Kennedy.
Today, Mills is way fatter than Kennedy. Lots of trans fats in those indian burgers.
The Duke wrote:
Today, Mills is way fatter than Kennedy. Lots of trans fats in those indian burgers.
But he has gold unlike b. Kennedy
In his book RUN WITH THE CHAMPIONS Marc Bloom ranks Kennedy #18 on his US's greatest male runner list.
1. Shorter 2. Ryun 3. Rodgers 4. Cunningham 5. Salazar 6. Mills 7. Schul 8. Prefontaine 9. Liquori 10. Beatty 11. Sheppard 12. Scott 13. Ashenfelter 14. Virgin 15. Kiviat 16. Edelen 17. Dellinger
The rest of his list is: 19. DeMar 20. Burleson 21. Maree
22. Marsh 23. G. Young 24. Lindgren 25. John J Kelly
26. J. Hayes 27. Corbitt 28. Spivey 29. Porter 30. Diemer
Well, that list of Bloom's doesn't seem right from what I remember. I thought he had Maree a lot higher.
I tend to side with the people who think that Kennedy was a better overall runner than those who competed prior to the 1980's professionalism boom and more importantly the 1990'2 African boom.
I'd put Shorter first, followed by Schul and Mills. Bill Rodgers is hard to figure into this. The marathon was not what it is today. Yes Bill was the man on the roads against American competition (with the handful of English and Irish guys, but there is no question in my mind that Kennedy faced with the much more competitive challanges in his era trained himself to be at least as great as a physical specimen of distance running as those guys.
Its ludicrous to match the post 1990 era of this sport with the prior years. Kennedy specialized in the single most competitive event in Track and Field (with the exception of the 100). You watch a Grand Prix 5000 today-they go out in 59 and barely slow down. If Kennedy had not focused on that event and moved up to the 10,000 and marathon earlier he might have had a better shot of a major medal. Still that doesn't diminish my view that he's easily one of the top 3 -5 at worst American distance runners ever.
His list of 5000 meter performances under 13:15 is staggering. And if you look at non-Africans under 13:05 you won't find many but Kennedy is there at least a half dozen times.
Take another sport like basketball,for example, before blacks dominated the sport. It was an entirely different sport. The sport is entirely at a differnt level than it was even in 1989.
I will agree that you can never know if Shorter, Mills, Pre, Schul, etc., faced with the same situation today, would have gathered and faced the challange and still rose to their level against the world that they accomplished in the 60's and 70's.
But its' interesting that Kennedy was the one among Americans that did it in his era, in an extremely competitive event. Croghan was close but the steeple will never be considered competitively similar to the 5000. And Williams, as great as he was, was never within 40 seconds of the world record. Kennedy might have not been a true threat to defeat the best in the world becasue of his 400 speed but at his best he was a guy that could break into the top 3-5. I don't think Williams was at that level against the very best the world had to offer at 10k.
I would say among Americans I would go (1500-Marathon)
Shorter
Schul
Maree
Kennedy
Ryun
Mills
Virgin
Prefontaine
Rodgers
Marsh
Salazar
Croghan
Edelen
Keflizighi
Those would be my rankings. I'm not getting into pre-modern era. Those guys weren't full time runners.
I forgot Liquori-Number one ranked in the world in the mile one year plus a near world record losing to Yifter in "77. Put him right behind Virgin and in front of Pefontaine. But not up with Kennedy.
Kennedy above Mills? Please!
Let's right now debunk the myth that Kennedy was "fat."
The guy was 6'0" tall (1.83 meters) and 140-145 pounds. The general formula for males is 110 pounds for the first 5'0", 5.5 pounds per inch afterwards (to a point). So 6'0" for the normal populace yields 176 pounds.
Already he is approximately 30 pounds underweight. He is so much taller than surrounding Kenyans that using these statistics are meaningless.
However, consider that Paul Tergat is 5'10" and about 131 pounds. Kennedy has 2 inches on him. At 5.5 pounds per inch, that's 131+11=142.
Gebrselassie is 5'3", 117. At 9 inches * 5.5 pounds per inch= 47.5 + 117= 162.
If you remain unconvinced, see the pictures:
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/51653177.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=AE5E3E7DB8E314174C63ECC5F2F631AF
The man was a starving Biaffran. Throughout his career he could at any point have stopped off at a McDonald's only to reemerge a month later and STILL look anorexic.
Those who label Kennedy "fat," or "overweight" or "needing to lose a few pounds" are overdue for an eye exam.
Definitely not fat. I offered him a Carlsburg tall-boy on the train platform after 1996's Crystal Palace meet on the way back to the hotel in Croydon and got a polite "no thanks", which was fine.....more piss for me.
Why 5.5 lbs per inch afterwards?
I understand the pro-BK lobbying but I dont buy it. It's natural to be myopic and favour the more recent runners - most posters don't remember the 80s so well let alone the golden 70s. It's also natural to feel nostaligic just after he announces his retirement. So I'm sympathetic.
In 20 years time will people remember BK as the best US distance athlete of the 20th century? When dust has ruined our 'old' VCRs and our T&F mags are well gone will we remember his consistency on the grand prix circuit and still ignore his relative failure at global events? I doubt it - history and fame go to the victorious and BK isn't amongst them. Those that do remember him will remember him as a 'plucky' loser. We'll struggle to remember the year and location of his now surpassed AR - was it Oslo or Gothenburg, 12'57 or 12'58?
I can't look beyond Mills as my favourite. His story is more evidence that the truth is always better than fiction. He didn't have the consistency or the times of BK but he wouldn't trade them for his medal either. For sheer pleasure and memories nobody beats Mills. In 20 years times the re-runs of Mills' race will still go on, those of Bobs won't.
Mills and Shorter are the best.
Everybody always talks about Williams and Kennedy being the only ones to "carry the torch" through the 90s. I am always amazed no one mentions Croghan as well. He was as amazing when it came to international comp (5th at the 93 WC and 96 OG, better than Kennedy ever placed in ANY international competition, and 6th at the 97 WC) AND with respect to his consistency AND times. He ran at least one race under 8:12 4 years, 8:14 or faster 6 years. He finished 3rd in Berlin and was always in the thick of things on the cricuit. He ran 8:09 which was just a few tenths off the American record. Mark Croghan, in my opinion, deserves more than Williams and as much as Kennedy to be recognized as one of the 2 or 3 carrying the torch through the 90s, and one of the best American steeplers ever.
You can't compare runners from diffrent eras. You just can't. Its like apples and oranges. Everything today is better, better comp, faster tracks, lighter spikes. Training has evolved. I mean hell you can't do it. But for his time running Bob Kennedy was without a doubt the best American. He won footlocker cross country in highschool and still went on to do great things, how many other Americans can say that. Not many. No disrespect ment, but what has matt lane and matt downin done lately? Bob had a long career, ran with the Africans when nobody else was, and inspired a good group of todays young runners who are attempting to continue what he did. One day guys like Webb, Rupp, and Withrow may have faster PR's, and I hope they do. Because it will be sad if the 5k record becomes like the mile and steeple and 800 records and become 20, 25 years old. But if anything can be said about Bob he deffinitly mixed it up with some great runners and I'm sure he had some great memories along the way.
The world 5K improvement when BK competed was almost comical. BK would've been dominant only 5 years earlier, and not just a full generation earlier. But Geb/Komen were setting huge world record PR's in his prime and, even considering generations, gapped anyone else ever before.
Geb ran a 12:58 5K in a 10K after his prime, and could lay down a 4:00 mile in the middle of a race, to still have guys in tow. Even 20 years earlier, Pre running against runners with Ryan Hall's PR doesn't compare.
Life isn’t fair. Great runner but Bill Rogers probably gets more money for showing up now. Rogers and Shorter are [low level?] American icons. Kennedy did fine he doesn’t need our pat on the back.
Agree with the NOT FAT posters here. To say that Kennedy was fat is insane.
Also, to put Billy Mills above Kennedy is also insane. Mills had a better single moment than Kennedy ever had, but to put his accomplishments above Kennedy based on that one performance isn't right.
I also like the talk of putting Marsh much higher. I think he gets a bad rap because the steeple is seen as an oddity. Croghan was also a stud (another OHIO product) who would be talked about much more highly had he run just a few tenths of a second faster that day when he ran 8:09. His top 10 times come out to a faster average than Marsh's top 10 times.
All the negative talk about Kennedy sure seems like a good reason to NOT attempt to be an elite runner (NOT saying me, I mean anyone who has a chance to become one). Dude ran 12:58 and people here call him fat with no kick. That's insanity.
I definitely have to put Kennedy in the top 5, and maybe even top 2. I'll have to think about it a bit. For me, I think Steve Scott has to be first -- super fast and consistent over a long period of time.
Others that compete for top 5 status are Virgin, Shorter, Rogers, Maree, and Marsh.
14 times he was under 13:10 for 5000, I believe he was recognized as the first non-African under 13:00
117 12:58.21 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 5 Zürich 14.08.1996
134 12:58.75 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 2 Stockholm 08.07.1996
288 13:02.93 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 2 Oslo 22.07.1994
308 13:03.37 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 4 Zürich 16.08.1995
316 13:03.57 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 6 Berlin 01.09.1998
338 13:04.04 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 5 Milano 07.09.1996
399 13:05.18 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 7 Roma 14.07.1998
419 13:05.54 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 5 Zürich 11.08.1999
440 13:05.93 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 2 Villeneuve d'Ascq 08.07.1994
445 13:06.12 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 2 Berlin 30.08.1996
469 13:06.62 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 6 Stockholm 07.07.1997
524 13:07.71 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 9 Zürich 13.08.1997
570 13:08.43 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 9 Roma 07.07.1999
628 13:09.64 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 5 Oslo 21.07.1995
How can people forget Spivey? If we are talking about top US guys in the last 30yrs I would put him ahead of Kennedy - WC Bronze medalist, 7th in Barcelona OG, etc etc. And 7 times ranked in the top 10 in the world for the 1500/Mile. Case closed.
Earlier in this thread, someone suggested that we shouldn't discount the performances of the earlier generation (Mills, Shorter, et al) because they didn't face the legion of talented North and East African runners of today.
I don't think those performances should be discounted, either. However, Bob Kennedy ran in a much more competitive, professional environment against immensely better organized, trained and professionaly manged athletes (the era of the super agents). Bob gets my vote as best American track distance runner. Craig Virgin may get a higher, general category ranking because he was so darn versatile. His Boston performance against Seko is still awe inspiring. If not for the Moscow boycott, many Americans would know his name.
So what, still a looooong way from the world record and the guy never won a race in Europe.
MarathonMind wrote:
14 times he was under 13:10 for 5000, I believe he was recognized as the first non-African under 13:00
117 12:58.21 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 5 Zürich 14.08.1996
134 12:58.75 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 2 Stockholm 08.07.1996
288 13:02.93 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 2 Oslo 22.07.1994
308 13:03.37 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 4 Zürich 16.08.1995
316 13:03.57 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 6 Berlin 01.09.1998
338 13:04.04 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 5 Milano 07.09.1996
399 13:05.18 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 7 Roma 14.07.1998
419 13:05.54 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 5 Zürich 11.08.1999
440 13:05.93 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 2 Villeneuve d'Ascq 08.07.1994
445 13:06.12 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 2 Berlin 30.08.1996
469 13:06.62 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 6 Stockholm 07.07.1997
524 13:07.71 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 9 Zürich 13.08.1997
570 13:08.43 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 9 Roma 07.07.1999
628 13:09.64 Bob Kennedy USA 18.08.70 5 Oslo 21.07.1995
