Think we are seeing the impact (or lack of impact) from shoe tech in the 800. Longer events are getting large boosts in times with records going down seemingly every weekend. The 800 looks basically the same as it did in the 2010s. The insanity of the distance performances are making the 800, which doesn’t get the same shoe bump in racing and training (unless 800 guy is very aerobic based with higher mileage), look lame in comparison.
The distance events have looked more or less the same for 20+ years. Barriers like 3:30 and 12:50 still mean something and are only broken by the top few.
Look at the 3k and 10k if you want, it’s the same story. If the shoes were worth what many here claim, all the old records would have been obliterated and times that were previously elite would be commonplace. It’s not like 12:48 is the new 13:00. People are losing their minds over soft indoor records going down and letting it cloud their judgement.
Are you kidding!? Of course the shoes and tracks are having a huge impact across the board in terms of the sheer number (depth) of fast times. Look at the number of records (not just world, but national and area) that have been set (firstly) on the roads and then on the tracks (particularly indoors) since the 'super carbon plated foam weaved spikes' were introduced in 2019. You only have to look at the unapproachable (for well over a decade) men's 5k and 10k WRs that were both beaten. The reason the men's 1500m to 3000m WRs haven't been beaten yet is more to do with the tighter doping testing in place now, not to mention the free for all EPO buffet of the late 90's, than the lack of improvement in spike technology. A few more years of technical advances in spikes and tracks (which I don't think is given the attention it deserves) and even the untouchable times of EL G and Komen will be beaten.
In terms of tracks, we have seen guys running 3:47 miles indoors in winter and then not getting near to those times/ability at the height of the summer. Elliott Giles ran 1:43.63 last winter and couldn't break 1:44 in the summer. This year we've had a 7:23 3000m, even a 'heavy' Kerr running a 7:33! That puts him in the same league as Aouita, and he just isn't that good! In a previous era (10 years ago), I would put Gourley as a peak 3:32 runner. Yet he's doing that easy indoors on current (new) tracks in new spikes.
There are guys running way under 13 mins in Jan/Feb this year. I mean, (based on what we know from historical data) why on earth are people in such shape in February? A 30 year old that has only once just snuck under 13:00 for 5000m, suddenly running a 12:51 on the trampoline track of Boston in January! It can only be down to a combination of the new shoes and the trampoline tracks that seem to becoming greater in numbers each year.
There needs to be a limit to how much tracks can be 'tuned' for fast times. And before someone claims that there are limits in place, well that clearly hasn't been the case as evidenced by the chief designer of the Mondo track laid in Tokyo for the last Olympics, openly claiming that this track was * % faster than any previous laid tracks. The proof came with the ridiculous times in the respective men's and women's 400m hurdles events. Such a huge percentage improvement in the world record progression in a sprint event clearly highlights that these times are not just down to 'hard work', but are certainly being made posible by other factors; namely new spikes and new tracks that are forever being developed to improve efficiency, energy return, comfort, etc. The alternative is that you really believe that after what 25 years of the men's WR being 46.78 (with no one getting close), we suddenly have a jump in human evolution that propels it to sub 46!? A 0.84 secs improvement in fact, which is about 6.5m in distance! Put another way, is Warholm really over a second better in ability than Moses? I don't think so.
There has already been much scientific research done on the benefit of these shoes, and there is the admission submitted by the track designers themselves that (modern) tracks are getting faster. To suggest that the shoes offer no benefit in the face of such damning and contrary evidence is just ludicrous.
Look at the 3k and 10k if you want, it’s the same story. If the shoes were worth what many here claim, all the old records would have been obliterated and times that were previously elite would be commonplace. It’s not like 12:48 is the new 13:00. People are losing their minds over soft indoor records going down and letting it cloud their judgement.
7:24 was a “soft indoor record? How many athletes ever ran that or faster outdoors?
Are you kidding!? Of course the shoes and tracks are having a huge impact across the board in terms of the sheer number (depth) of fast times. Look at the number of records (not just world, but national and area) that have been set (firstly) on the roads and then on the tracks (particularly indoors) since the 'super carbon plated foam weaved spikes' were introduced in 2019. You only have to look at the unapproachable (for well over a decade) men's 5k and 10k WRs that were both beaten. The reason the men's 1500m to 3000m WRs haven't been beaten yet is more to do with the tighter doping testing in place now, not to mention the free for all EPO buffet of the late 90's, than the lack of improvement in spike technology. A few more years of technical advances in spikes and tracks (which I don't think is given the attention it deserves) and even the untouchable times of EL G and Komen will be beaten.
In terms of tracks, we have seen guys running 3:47 miles indoors in winter and then not getting near to those times/ability at the height of the summer. Elliott Giles ran 1:43.63 last winter and couldn't break 1:44 in the summer. This year we've had a 7:23 3000m, even a 'heavy' Kerr running a 7:33! That puts him in the same league as Aouita, and he just isn't that good! In a previous era (10 years ago), I would put Gourley as a peak 3:32 runner. Yet he's doing that easy indoors on current (new) tracks in new spikes.
There are guys running way under 13 mins in Jan/Feb this year. I mean, (based on what we know from historical data) why on earth are people in such shape in February? A 30 year old that has only once just snuck under 13:00 for 5000m, suddenly running a 12:51 on the trampoline track of Boston in January! It can only be down to a combination of the new shoes and the trampoline tracks that seem to becoming greater in numbers each year.
There needs to be a limit to how much tracks can be 'tuned' for fast times. And before someone claims that there are limits in place, well that clearly hasn't been the case as evidenced by the chief designer of the Mondo track laid in Tokyo for the last Olympics, openly claiming that this track was * % faster than any previous laid tracks. The proof came with the ridiculous times in the respective men's and women's 400m hurdles events. Such a huge percentage improvement in the world record progression in a sprint event clearly highlights that these times are not just down to 'hard work', but are certainly being made posible by other factors; namely new spikes and new tracks that are forever being developed to improve efficiency, energy return, comfort, etc. The alternative is that you really believe that after what 25 years of the men's WR being 46.78 (with no one getting close), we suddenly have a jump in human evolution that propels it to sub 46!? A 0.84 secs improvement in fact, which is about 6.5m in distance! Put another way, is Warholm really over a second better in ability than Moses? I don't think so.
There has already been much scientific research done on the benefit of these shoes, and there is the admission submitted by the track designers themselves that (modern) tracks are getting faster. To suggest that the shoes offer no benefit in the face of such damning and contrary evidence is just ludicrous.
A bunch of things can be true. Indoor tracks are really fast, and the BU one in particular might be faster than outdoors. Indoor gives athletes perfect conditions every time with no wind. Pacing with the wavelights has never been easier.
I think your point about running fast in February is a bit off the mark. Athletes are completely fresh and only thinking about running fast, not winning. Why wouldn’t that be ideal.
On Kerr and Aouita, he’s some almost 4 seconds behind him at the 3,000. I would not consider that the same league really. Kerr has beaten his 1500m PB albeit without consistency. On Gourley, as far as things stand he is a 3:32 guy, let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Lastly for Giles, yes his 800m indoors stands out (.4 faster than his outdoor PB), but then he dropped a 3:33 outdoors he hasn’t approached indoors. Cuts both ways. One more is the 400H where the track surely helps but also let’s be honest that record stood too long considering Young hit the hurdle and celebrated. All of these guy have 44-mid PBs and are quicker on the flat than Young or Moses.
You want to see 800 performance drops, start getting the 44/45 second 400 meter guys that aren't going to win anything to move up.
This is exactly correct. In the 800, speed is the key. Find the fast guys, extend their range, and move them up. In the 800 that's far more significant than shoes will ever be. You can add strength to speed. Much harder to do the opposite well enough for high quality 800.
Here's the other critical factor. Racing experience. Top guys today simply don't race enough. The 800 is the most difficult race to learn. If you only run a high level competitive one multiple weeks apart, you simply can't build the requisite experience base. So when you get into serious international races you get outsmarted and/or manhandled.
Those guys are likely to fast to be good 800m guys. It is all the 45.5-47.0 guys who need to be trying the 800m. And let's not forget it is mainly a young person's event where you tend to peak at like 22 if you start training hard at 14...
The distance events have looked more or less the same for 20+ years. Barriers like 3:30 and 12:50 still mean something and are only broken by the top few.
Look at the 3k and 10k if you want, it’s the same story. If the shoes were worth what many here claim, all the old records would have been obliterated and times that were previously elite would be commonplace. It’s not like 12:48 is the new 13:00. People are losing their minds over soft indoor records going down and letting it cloud their judgement.
Are you kidding!? Of course the shoes and tracks are having a huge impact across the board in terms of the sheer number (depth) of fast times. Look at the number of records (not just world, but national and area) that have been set (firstly) on the roads and then on the tracks (particularly indoors) since the 'super carbon plated foam weaved spikes' were introduced in 2019. You only have to look at the unapproachable (for well over a decade) men's 5k and 10k WRs that were both beaten. The reason the men's 1500m to 3000m WRs haven't been beaten yet is more to do with the tighter doping testing in place now, not to mention the free for all EPO buffet of the late 90's, than the lack of improvement in spike technology. A few more years of technical advances in spikes and tracks (which I don't think is given the attention it deserves) and even the untouchable times of EL G and Komen will be beaten.
In terms of tracks, we have seen guys running 3:47 miles indoors in winter and then not getting near to those times/ability at the height of the summer. Elliott Giles ran 1:43.63 last winter and couldn't break 1:44 in the summer. This year we've had a 7:23 3000m, even a 'heavy' Kerr running a 7:33! That puts him in the same league as Aouita, and he just isn't that good! In a previous era (10 years ago), I would put Gourley as a peak 3:32 runner. Yet he's doing that easy indoors on current (new) tracks in new spikes.
There are guys running way under 13 mins in Jan/Feb this year. I mean, (based on what we know from historical data) why on earth are people in such shape in February? A 30 year old that has only once just snuck under 13:00 for 5000m, suddenly running a 12:51 on the trampoline track of Boston in January! It can only be down to a combination of the new shoes and the trampoline tracks that seem to becoming greater in numbers each year.
There needs to be a limit to how much tracks can be 'tuned' for fast times. And before someone claims that there are limits in place, well that clearly hasn't been the case as evidenced by the chief designer of the Mondo track laid in Tokyo for the last Olympics, openly claiming that this track was * % faster than any previous laid tracks. The proof came with the ridiculous times in the respective men's and women's 400m hurdles events. Such a huge percentage improvement in the world record progression in a sprint event clearly highlights that these times are not just down to 'hard work', but are certainly being made posible by other factors; namely new spikes and new tracks that are forever being developed to improve efficiency, energy return, comfort, etc. The alternative is that you really believe that after what 25 years of the men's WR being 46.78 (with no one getting close), we suddenly have a jump in human evolution that propels it to sub 46!? A 0.84 secs improvement in fact, which is about 6.5m in distance! Put another way, is Warholm really over a second better in ability than Moses? I don't think so.
There has already been much scientific research done on the benefit of these shoes, and there is the admission submitted by the track designers themselves that (modern) tracks are getting faster. To suggest that the shoes offer no benefit in the face of such damning and contrary evidence is just ludicrous.
What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Seriously dude, get a grip. Why are you raving about track surfaces and road shoes in response to a post about super spikes? You can cherry pick all day long, but the stats don’t lie. Distance standards have held up remarkably well over the decades. Your hero Cram would still be one of the top milers in the world today, almost 40 years later. One guy breaking Bekele’s records doesn’t prove the shoes are worth whatever ridiculous number of seconds per mile is in vogue these days.
If all it took were a new pair of spikes and a juiced up track, the sport would be unrecognizable. We should have dozens of men under 3:30 every year and El G’s 3:26 would be an afterthought, crushed by multiple guys at this point. Bekele’s 12:37 and Cheptegei’s 12:35? They’d be forgotten and surpassed by those who ran 12:40s before the dragonfly.
Athletes are peaking for indoors and chasing times now more than ever. We’ve seen that indoors is as fast as outdoors so what’s the big deal? Josh Kerr running 7:33 puts him on Aouita’s level? Not even close dude. And I’m sorry, but who are you to say Warholm isn’t actually that much better than Moses? He’s run .73 faster over the flat 400 and that was in 2017. But who cares! Why are you whining that the 400h record was broken by someone you don’t think is good enough in a discussion about the effects of super spikes on distance performance?
It’s hard to respond to everything in your absurd rant of a post because it jumps all over the place. I’ll touch on the Kincaid thing briefly just because it shows how dumb all of this is. Woody ran 12:58 IN SUPER SHOES, so the improvement to 12:51 has nothing to do with what was on his feet. Of course now you’ll just blame it on the track, but keep in mind that Fisher ran 12:53 at BU and then 12:46 outdoors. That Brussels track must be a real trampoline!
Go ahead and keep crying about Neil Gourley and Elliot Giles, claiming drug tests only work for the 15 and 3k, etc. Everyone knows that the sport died in the 90s for you and you’ve never been able to move on. Super tracks and super spikes are just the latest thing for you to moan about so you can keep telling yourself that three guys from the same country who ran 40 years ago were the best to ever do it and always will be.
There needs to be a limit to how much tracks can be 'tuned' for fast times. And before someone claims that there are limits in place, well that clearly hasn't been the case as evidenced by the chief designer of the Mondo track laid in Tokyo for the last Olympics, openly claiming that this track was * % faster than any previous laid tracks. The proof came with the ridiculous times in the respective men's and women's 400m hurdles events. Such a huge percentage improvement in the world record progression in a sprint event clearly highlights that these times are not just down to 'hard work', but are certainly being made posible by other factors; namely new spikes and new tracks that are forever being developed to improve efficiency, energy return, comfort, etc. The alternative is that you really believe that after what 25 years of the men's WR being 46.78 (with no one getting close), we suddenly have a jump in human evolution that propels it to sub 46!? A 0.84 secs improvement in fact, which is about 6.5m in distance! Put another way, is Warholm really over a second better in ability than Moses? I don't think so.
2021 Tokyo Warholm 45.94
2022 dos Santos 46.29
2021 Tokyo McLaughlin 51.46
2022 McLaughlin 50.68
Young's record was the worst from all WRs, the men's 400m hurdles was extremely weak for decades.
The "chief designer" OPENLY claimed his track is fast...
I'm surprised more HS coaches don't try to convince track athletes about the 800m marketability to a college coach. Anyone involed in track knows that a good 800m can be used in so many events, including an open 400m.
Not to mention almost every relay, the 1500. and, let's not forget indoors, with the 600m, 1000m, and all those relays.
A good 800m , in my opinion is the most marketable athlete to a college coach
Think we are seeing the impact (or lack of impact) from shoe tech in the 800. Longer events are getting large boosts in times with records going down seemingly every weekend. The 800 looks basically the same as it did in the 2010s. The insanity of the distance performances are making the 800, which doesn’t get the same shoe bump in racing and training (unless 800 guy is very aerobic based with higher mileage), look lame in comparison.
I agree, although, at least at the USA level that doesnt explain the doldrums we are in with Brazier disappearing (still injured?), Murphy finishing last or close to it recently and tokyo (injured or old?), and Hoppel's development just stagnating about a year ago, which i didnt see coming. The times are not there either. Tokyo, only clayton in final and finished last around 1:47? yeesh.
Um, the 800 guy at the moment is Tibo. Ran 1:45 flat in january with ease blowing away the kenyan by a mile. Why are we avoiding the obvious?
See, this is just it, we are celebrating people running 145 on the elite circuit as the new king? If Brazier was a shadow of his former self he would be winning fast 800s by 2 second this last 1.5 yrs. Its just slow right now. Wightmen i believe is the only guy since 2021 to run a top 100 time!! Brazier, Soloman, Symmonds, Gray (even Murphy)...who is going to run 1:42 from the US anytime soon like those guys? Im waiting. 145 is the new 142?
Um, the 800 guy at the moment is Tibo. Ran 1:45 flat in january with ease blowing away the kenyan by a mile. Why are we avoiding the obvious?
See, this is just it, we are celebrating people running 145 on the elite circuit as the new king? If Brazier was a shadow of his former self he would be winning fast 800s by 2 second this last 1.5 yrs. Its just slow right now. Wightmen i believe is the only guy since 2021 to run a top 100 time!! Brazier, Soloman, Symmonds, Gray (even Murphy)...who is going to run 1:42 from the US anytime soon like those guys? Im waiting. 145 is the new 142?
What a disrespectful, ignorant clown comment. First, most of those guys mentioned never ran faster than Tibo indoors, second Brazier never ran faster than .6 seconds indoors vs Tibo, third, no one, ever, has ran faster than Tibo this early...jan 22. Ever!!!
Fourth, Tibo has clearly jumped to a new level. If he doesn't run 1:43s multiple times this year outdoors I would be shocked. And would not be surprised if he dips into 1:42. Please
I'm surprised more HS coaches don't try to convince track athletes about the 800m marketability to a college coach. Anyone involed in track knows that a good 800m can be used in so many events, including an open 400m.
Not to mention almost every relay, the 1500. and, let's not forget indoors, with the 600m, 1000m, and all those relays.
A good 800m , in my opinion is the most marketable athlete to a college coach
Few 800m guys are scoring a lot of points at nationals/conference. Fe
See, this is just it, we are celebrating people running 145 on the elite circuit as the new king? If Brazier was a shadow of his former self he would be winning fast 800s by 2 second this last 1.5 yrs. Its just slow right now. Wightmen i believe is the only guy since 2021 to run a top 100 time!! Brazier, Soloman, Symmonds, Gray (even Murphy)...who is going to run 1:42 from the US anytime soon like those guys? Im waiting. 145 is the new 142?
The 800 and indoors have rarely been a big thing. The circuit last year was pretty tough to watch, though. At the DL Final, you finally saw the 800m guys take it to a high level and that's why they completely destroyed Wightman in a really impressive race. But watch the road to the DL Final last year, it was pretty brutally mediocre:
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Wow, that 1:43.5 by Wightman was impressive. So much for no fast times in 2022. Still, I guess 1500 guys shouldnt be dominating the 800.
I think the bar for world wide fast times isn't 1:43.5. We've seen a 1:40.9, and 'many' 1:41/1:42 times in the last decade. A 1:43.5 isn't on that same level. Right now anyone sub 1:45 is a medal contender and it has required a lot more than that in the past decade.
The DL final was by far the most impressive. Arop made a gigantic move in what looked like it was gonna be a blah 1:44 race. Korir ran extra distance and still beat him with a 1:43.2 I think. But really it was the only great 800m of the year. The World final was pretty good as was Wightmans win.
I'm surprised more HS coaches don't try to convince track athletes about the 800m marketability to a college coach. Anyone involed in track knows that a good 800m can be used in so many events, including an open 400m.
Not to mention almost every relay, the 1500. and, let's not forget indoors, with the 600m, 1000m, and all those relays.
A good 800m , in my opinion is the most marketable athlete to a college coach
I'll tell you what the problem is. The 800m is the cross over event where anyone with any speed is taken by the sprint coach and will almost never try the 800. If the sub 50 400m kid has any aptitude for the 800 they won't get any distance training, it'll only be sprint work.
The distance coach is coaching 800m runners with milers moving down and they won't get to work with the real 400/800 talent.
IMHO the best 800m runners also have excellent 400m speed and a spot on the 4x400 relay.
The 800 is too hard. Everyone potentially good enough understands they will have to make several dozen insane efforts over a few years to get near the records. And will almost certainly fail anyway.
Amos being on the cancer-causing PED is a strong sign that the records are out of reach.
I'll tell you what the problem is. The 800m is the cross over event where anyone with any speed is taken by the sprint coach and will almost never try the 800. If the sub 50 400m kid has any aptitude for the 800 they won't get any distance training, it'll only be sprint work.
The distance coach is coaching 800m runners with milers moving down and they won't get to work with the real 400/800 talent.
IMHO the best 800m runners also have excellent 400m speed and a spot on the 4x400 relay.
HAHAHAHA maybe all of that is true in the US.
Maybe that is why the US has been great for decades in the 100/200/400 and meanwhile rarely medaled in the 800.
Rudisha, Amos etc -- any good 800 man from Africa -- were all sub-50 as teenagers, but had coaches who saw the 800 potential. They didn't "only get sprint work" LOLOLOL.
Think we are seeing the impact (or lack of impact) from shoe tech in the 800. Longer events are getting large boosts in times with records going down seemingly every weekend. The 800 looks basically the same as it did in the 2010s. The insanity of the distance performances are making the 800, which doesn’t get the same shoe bump in racing and training (unless 800 guy is very aerobic based with higher mileage), look lame in comparison.
The distance events have looked more or less the same for 20+ years. Barriers like 3:30 and 12:50 still mean something and are only broken by the top few.
Look at the 3k and 10k if you want, it’s the same story. If the shoes were worth what many here claim, all the old records would have been obliterated and times that were previously elite would be commonplace. It’s not like 12:48 is the new 13:00. People are losing their minds over soft indoor records going down and letting it cloud their judgement.
I agree with this. Silas Kiplagat ran 3:27 without super shoes 9 years ago, and in that Monaco race and the year after there were a like half a dozen guys under or right at 3:30 (gonna exclude Kiprop from this since he's a doper). We saw some 3:29-3:30 races in 2022 but it's hard to argue that super spikes have helped significantly there. Guys had been doing that for years prior. Maybe it's allowing for more depth, but I wouldn't say it's making the fastest times faster - at least outdoor. Athletes at indoor meets are crazy fit and don't have a long full year of competing in their legs. Obviously a crazy amount of guys broke 4 at BU this year, and there's A LOT more depth than we've seen before, but the fastest times run there this year haven't necessarily been faster, or at least significantly faster than other recent years. Rupp still ran 3:50 there 10 years ago. Obviously we saw some insane mile and 3k times this year but I wouldn't say the super spikes have nearly the same effect as super shoes on the road.
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