The Miami runner clearly knocked it out of her hand
And when she knocked it out of her hand the form of her left arm was clearly different than her normal running form
I'm not saying she intentionally did it
But in the moment she clearly had some awareness of the baton being there and changed her motion of her arm
And she clearly knocked the baton out with the palm of her hand
And no one runs with the palm of their hand going backwards like that
And it was clearly a different motion that her normal running form
Therefore Duke should be given second place
I’m not understanding the logic. If Miami knocked it out intentionally out Miami should be DQed. But it was too close and didn’t really look intentional. You can see something happen to her face when the baton gets knocked out but I think that’s more of a “what just happened and what did I hit” kind of thing.
I think the only argument Duke would have had was if the Miami runner had drifted into the path of the Duke runner's arm swing in lane 1. But that is not what happened and in fact the opposite is what happened - the Duke runner drifted out. The contact occurred in lane 2. Interestingly every exchange I saw (which might not be all) was from the incoming right hand to the outgoing left hand and then the outgoing runner switched from left into right for the carry. It is a tough call, but the rule is you have to get the baton accross the finish line.
As this thread makes clear (as well as a thread on a certain runner's inability to understand tangents), runners aren't always the sharpest tool in the box.
I would not point a finger at this one runner or even this one coach. Every carry I saw on W side was in right hand.
Interestingly every exchange I saw (which might not be all) was from the incoming right hand to the outgoing left hand and then the outgoing runner switched from left into right for the carry.
That is how it is supposed to be done. Relay legs of 400m or longer always receive the baton in their left hand and then switch to the right for the remainder of the leg.
I have run a ton of 4X400 and 4X800 relays and the college I went to had many Penn Relay champions and NCAA top 3 relay teams.
Every relay longer than a 4X100 had each runner carrying the baton in the right hand. We would hand hand off into the left hand and then immediately switch it to the right for the rest of the leg.
He feels weird to turn and lean left with the baton in your left hand. It feels more balanced to carry it in your right hand while betting left.
Do these posters advocating for a left hand carry have any experience running relays?
This issue was mostly caused by the inside runner running nearly into lane two while the outside runner was holding her line.
But really it was simply bad luck. And I feel bad for her and her team. If the coach threw a tantrum and acted like a victim, maybe it was karma for him.
She was 1 stride from the finish flying through the air, how is she supposed to go back for it?
Wow. What a freaking finish.
This brings back fears I had when I used to coach. If we weren't up by more than 10 heading into the 4 x 400, I always feared something like this.
I'm glad it was an auto DQ and thought the announcers were harsh on her for not going back to get the baton. I don't think she could have done it in 7 seconds anyway. It would be really hard to do it that quick.
I mean if you told someone running an all out 400, once you finish turn around go to the infield grab a baton and come back maybe they could do iti n 7 seconds but here it's going to take a a few seconds to realize what happened, then go back.
im not sure about that Rojo. It is ingrained in the minds of relay members to keep that baton in their hand. it is tradition at many schools to drop and do 10 pushups if you drop a baton at anytime in practice, warmups, etc. I think there are a lot of people who would immediately turn back for a baton in this situation.
I have not seen this mentioned yet. Miami from ACCs is now #12 on NCAA list. If Duke had won they would have been in NCAA meet, which explains why they were racing so hard.
I have run a ton of 4X400 and 4X800 relays and the college I went to had many Penn Relay champions and NCAA top 3 relay teams.
Every relay longer than a 4X100 had each runner carrying the baton in the right hand. We would hand hand off into the left hand and then immediately switch it to the right for the rest of the leg.
He feels weird to turn and lean left with the baton in your left hand. It feels more balanced to carry it in your right hand while betting left.
Do these posters advocating for a left hand carry have any experience running relays?
This issue was mostly caused by the inside runner running nearly into lane two while the outside runner was holding her line.
But really it was simply bad luck. And I feel bad for her and her team. If the coach threw a tantrum and acted like a victim, maybe it was karma for him.
My issue with calling it bad luck is that they fully knew the situation. It’s like you’re on the 10 yard line and need a FG. It’s third down. Don’t throw a blind pass into the end zone. The runner and coach should have prioritized being safe. Literally no DQ and don’t drop the baton. If they need a time for Nationals then find something next weekend.
I have not seen this mentioned yet. Miami from ACCs is now #12 on NCAA list. If Duke had won they would have been in NCAA meet, which explains why they were racing so hard.
Was mentioned on the broadcast. Does BU or any races next week have a 4x4? Would rather win ACCs than be a back runner at Nats but Wilbourn probably agrees with me now.
Does anyone teach these people to carry the baton on the inside lane of the track????
I thought about this after later watching the SEC conference meet and seeing batons dropped several times in their 4x400m relays. The problem would be, asking the incoming runner to switch from left to right as their leg is concluding and they are completely out of it after sprinting 400m. The handoff has to be right to left. Just teach a strong grip or carrying like a football like some runners do, along the forearm. Just a weird day yesterday but this does tend to happen indoors.
I have not seen this mentioned yet. Miami from ACCs is now #12 on NCAA list. If Duke had won they would have been in NCAA meet, which explains why they were racing so hard.
I have not seen this mentioned yet. Miami from ACCs is now #12 on NCAA list. If Duke had won they would have been in NCAA meet, which explains why they were racing so hard.
Just pathetic relay coaching at what should be the top level, but makes for real entertainment!
I remember noticing this aspect during European Championships last summer. Their runners aren't always the fastest but they've obviously been schooled at holding the baton mostly in front of them with a fairly compact arm swing. Most of them have basically the same technique. The only one who flails wildly behind her back like a collegian is the glam gal Alica Schmidt from Germany:
Great video. Yes the Euros do a great job of "protecting the baton" compared to the NCAA women. No wild swinging of the right arm. Experience and coaching well applied.
The Duke runner, McGinnis had an unexpected win in the open 400...talk about a having a high experience come crashing down. It will be interesting if she makes any changes going forward.
With 10m left in a 400m leg with a runner right next to you, your brain is not processing some safe field goal football analogy or backing off to ease into second.
It’s not a prelim, where it means nothing to get second and advance. It was a conference final. You run to win. You want to be the 4X4 conference champs.
People are way too hard on her from their couches.
At EVERY level, not just the NCAA, this is how batons are carried. World records are set with left hand carries. The level of comfort in carrying with a dominant hand and exchanging right-to-left far outweighs the negatives.
I’ll never know if the Duke runner McGinnis drifted wide from fatigue or tried to block. But the DQ was the only reasonable decision. Disappointing for the whole squad. Wide Right
I am the left hand carry advocate that posted earlier, I was on a state championship 4x8 and have run many collegiate 4x4s, to answer an earlier question. My HS team was left hand all the way, my college coach did nothing to prepare/train for hand-offs and some guys were left, some right as a result. I don't claim that makes me an authority.
So far, they only advantage anyone has mentioned to a right hand carry is that right handed people feel more comfortable with that. Point taken, but at the elite level couldn't you train to carry in your left? It is not like your writing calligraphy or something detailed.
The rest of the responses have been that the multiple things I have mentioned would have little effect, but that they would have an effect. But still, they have an effect and are being compared to a right handed carry which has negative effects.
With a left hand carry, Duke would have won and avoided contact all together because they would have been further ahead without the wasted switch time that occurred earlier in the race.
It is strange to think how detailed 4x1 hand-offs are, and how 4x4/4x8/DMR hand-offs appear quite sloppy at the elite levels.
With 10m left in a 400m leg with a runner right next to you, your brain is not processing some safe field goal football analogy or backing off to ease into second.
It’s not a prelim, where it means nothing to get second and advance. It was a conference final. You run to win. You want to be the 4X4 conference champs.
People are way too hard on her from their couches.
That’s a mental lapse on her and the coaches. The talk going into this needs to be don’t get DQed and protect the baton.