van aaken

vladimir wrote:

Have you read "run to the top"- there are some really telling things in that book. I really like how he handled the athlete (I think 800 runner) who had a bad race- if coaches did that now I would always have a bad race.

I take it you're talking about Lydiard here because I don't know of anything van Aaken wrote with that title? And you might be referring to finding a secretary or something at gthe local athletics association and giving her some money to show the half miler, might have been Gary Philpott, a good time?

Yes, I heard of that story when I was in Germany, but until I saw it in print thought it was another "running stories"- did you remember it off the top of your head or did you look it up? If it is the former, you have quite a memory, if it is the later you must have a nice libary with a system for finding books.

I have read the story. But I also knew Lydiard passably well and that story is one of his regulars. In addition to reading it, I've heard it over a beer now and again.

vladimir and hre,

your exchanges on this thread is what i love about letsrun.

thank you both and all others who have made this a GREAT thread.

wc

I can not speak for HRE, but if we (older athletes) share our experiences perhaps the USA could get back towards the top of the running heap.

You could indeed be speaking for me.

I recently picked up Van aaken's book and was interested in any thoughts about his views on nutrition as it relates to the marathoner. He seemed to downplay the use of sports drinks and the taking of any nutrition along the way, or even close to the race. Have "modern" methods proven him somewhat wrong in this regard, or perhaps just built on his principles?

He was not against taking in during the longer races (marathons & ultras), but was more concerned with your daily intake. I do not remember his being concerned about drinking during races (remember it was not until ??? that liquids were allowed during races), but he wanted us to stay hydrated during training. He was more of a quality of food over quanity of food.

What I was getting at was that he stated in the book that it did one no good to take in sports drinks or other nutrition during a race, other than to "set the changeover to (the body's utilization of) fatty acids in motion". (pp.99-101) He urged you to train with a sugar deficiency in order to help your body build up more reserves. Thanks for your input.

You're addressing two issues. One is drinking during races. Van Aaken recognized the need to stay hydrated. But he was also one of the earlier people to recognize that overhydration was a problem. So he would likely have cautioned you not to get too obsessed with drinking during a race.

He was also a believer in running in a way that taught your body to use fat as fuel rather than glycogen. To that end, he wrote that it was preferable to run at a time when you hadn't eaten for quite a few hours as your glycogen stores would be depleted.

Another thing I've observed is that van Aaken's ideas about diet have gotten more attenion in recent years than they did 20 or more years ago. He really believed that the most important thing was the running. Diet was a secondary concern as far as I can tell.

I know that this is not a direct link to the drinking issue, but on this website most threads evolve. My own recent requote of the Dr would be "eat when you are hungry, sleep when you are tired and run the rest of the day". To become a better runner you run. That is the primary issue. Too many want to find a perfect diet, the right shoe, etc. In one of the books I read (I think by Steffney - spelled) he talks a little about it when he deals with developing athletes (if i recall correctly 2:30 runners). Diet and genics are aspects of running not the key- train consistant and remain injury free. Just think how easy a 2:20 marathon is to do! It is only 420 x 100@ :20 or 105 x 400@ 80, or finally 26 x 400@ 5:20. Very simple sport - it only takes hard work.

HRE you have summed up what I believe were Dr van Aaken's views on training and diet quite well. I too believe that the training is much more important than the diet and can and have followed his recommendations with success in distances from 5K through half marathons.

Marathons are another matter. I have never fasted before one, so in a sense I never totally gave his ideas a try. I have hit the wall pretty hard on at least 2 'thons and it is something that I strongly desire to never do again.

As an aside, Manfred Steffny mentioned that he did not take a drop of liquid during the 68 Olympics.

The fasting is just part of the training. If you were to practice the fasting aspect prior to some of your longer runs it would all come together. I cheated before the first few and paid for it (Dr thought I was fasting and i was sneaking food- junk food at that). I did fast for 36 hours before my two fastest marathons- not world beating times, but a good indication of a fair degree of fitness. It is quite a different story for an individual who is going to be out there for longer than 3:00. I am sure that the Dr. would disagree with me on this, but on a good day I was finished and warmed down within three hours. If you remember Bikia (spelled ???) with his exercises after his second olympic gold you can see the amount of energy he had and he was a faster. In his writings he stated that it (fasting) allowed his body to take a rest from processing food. Secondly he said even though he did not take his weight he did feel lighter from not eating. With the amount of time that it takes to process food it is not likely that the top runner will ever get any advantage from eating during the race. Back in the 70's the big thing was the carbo loading process- the entire process took a week started with a long run- then four days of protein only- followed by three days of carbs. Anyone who went thru this was on the border of trying to kill anyone close to them. Once again training and diet, etc are by the individual- get on a system that you beleive in and stick with it. Do not change your training everytime a new system is announced in Runners World.

I ran my first marathon this past October and was very interested in the notion of fasting to train as well as perhaps not eating the morning of a marathon. I do not run well after I eat, and if I have a good sized lunch I'm not able to run hard the rest of the day, so his ideas on the subject rang a bell with me. I'm going to experiment with it in training for my next marathon in the fall. I'm a shade over 3 (3:10) so it may or may not be a good idea. I ate a light breakfast before my marathon a few hours prior, and took in a mixture of 1/2 water & gatorade (around a quart) in addition to water. I also took two gels- 1 at 14 and one at 18. I don't honestly know whether they helped or not. Thanks again for sharing your experiences.

Thanks for that detailed information about fasting and your experiences with it.

I have done many long runs with 12 plus hour fasts. Several

3 hour and some 4 hour runs. I just never tried a race ( 'thon ) that way.

Recently developed some heel pain in thr right heel and find that the only running that want aggravate it is exactly what the good Dr prescribed.

Manfred Steffny stated that Bikila did not drink much if anything in his marathons also. I believe he stated that Bikila did not even drink much prior to the race.

I almost never drink during races. I never have. On the rare occasions I have, it hasn't gone well. I went from 78th to 253rd at Boston in 1976 becasue I spent the last 6 miles stopping at service station rest rooms. I had been drinking from the early stages of the race because of the heat and it didn't set well.

I also usually run at midday and generally heven't eaten sicne the previous night. Again, it works fairly well for me.

That is also good information.

I've never had any issues with drinking during 'thons.

Recently ran a 3:41:09 with a severe crash on or about mile 20. Very determined to beat the then 53 year old fraulein pictured in van Aakens ( American ) book, since that is my current age.

I clearly see that sub 3 hour marathoners would probably not need any food prior to or throughout their races, with the possible exception of liquids such as gatorade.

I think that it is still a very personal matter. But this is personalized by your training (eating or not eating in your training runs). Not having raced in several years, I plan to start training to race again- not that I expect much, I have been out of it for too long. I have started the training aspects and will incorporate the fasting part soon (it was much easier when I was on my own) as I think you need to prepare your body to be able to switch over from our constant eating to the fasting aspects. Did you get in many long runs? Did you crash or just slow down. I have slowed down at the end, but I think it is only a crash if your last 10k is slower than 1.5 of your average to that point. For example if you ran 5:00 for the first 32k (expecting a 3:30 marathon) and ran 3:55 that is a crash. If you slowed to 5:30 and ran 3:35 that is not the same. Like most on these threads just an opinion.

Very determined to beat the then 53 year old fraulein pictured in van Aakens ( American ) book, since that is my current age. [quote]

That would be Eva Westphal? I just checked the book. I looked at her picture and thought that she looks really old. Then it struck me that I'm that age too and wonder if I look as old to other people. But, in an interview that appears at the end of the book, EvA says that she is 56. So maybe we've got different books or different versions of the same book. He also said that she only trained 5 to 10 km per day.

I also noticed that pretty much every runner pictured in that book has got on Eugen Brutting shoes. That was the "Lydiard" shoe as well. I always wanted a pair but could never afford them. Vladmir, did you ever have the Bruttings?