Unfortunately, there is an alternative explanation for the apparent decline in E African dominance, which is that just about everybody is now doing what it takes to succeed in the sport.
Magahunter wrote:Just to bust your bubble,Euros have a long way to go to even be competitive with Africans. 36 total medals up for grabs 800 to marathon men and women,Euros collected a measly 6,Africans 30. And swallow this,overall 66 medals on the track minus relays,Euros could only muster all of 10.In fact 100 to 400 just 2 Euros both women made a final,not a single Euro male made it out of rounds. Euros should not bother themselves about competing with Africans,not gonna happen.It is the Asians Euros should be fretting about because the Asians are coming and are you about to blow by them
Dear colleague, you vividly demonstrate the widespread ignorance of elementary physical differences among human populations - which explains why ordinary people easily succumb to ridiculous mythologies, when watching track and field meetings on TV.
What is the most critical physical requirement for the success in most world sports? It's body height because in most sports you must reach and throw further, jump higher, lift more. And all these performances increase, when your body is larger. Short height is important only when your body itself is the subject of the sports performance (such as in gymnastics, diving or trampolining).
And who are the tallest people in today's world? Believe it or not, it's Europeans, who have utilized the 150-years long benefits of the industrial revolution. The current average height in Europe is about 178 cm in men - it's ussually below this value in Western Europe, the Mediterranean, and in the Eastern Balkans, but above it among Germanic-speaking populations (ca. 181 cm in Scandinavia, 182 cm in the Netherlands, 180 cm in Germany), Balkan highlanders (183 cm in Montenegrins, 181 cm in Bosnians, 184 cm in Dalmatians and Herzegovinians), and in the Baltic nations (182 cm in Estonians).
In contrast, most world nations still essentially remain in the middle ages: The tallest nation in Asia are Lebanese with less than 176 cm in men, followed by Israelis (175 cm) and South Koreans (174 cm). The mean male height in one-billion China is 172 cm at most, and in India it is even lower (165 cm). With the possible exception of South Sudan, for which actual data are missing, the situation in sub-Saharan Africa is similar: 176 cm in Senegal, 175 cm in Mali, 174 cm in Libya, Algeria and Tunisia. BTW, the mean height of Nigerian men is ca. 172 cm, and in almost the whole of sub-Saharan Africa, height has been decreasing as a result of the imbalance between quickly growing populations and resources. No black population of West African descent living in Western countries is taller than 177 cm (in USA and UK) - and the height in both US blacks and US whites has decreased by ca. 1 cm during the last two decades, as a result of flawed nutritional policies and fast food lifestyle.
And what about the athletic marvels from the Caribbean?
Dominica, St. Vincent and Grenadines, Grenada, Cayman Islands: 177 cm; Jamaica: 176 cm; Barbados, Bermuda, St. Lucia, Trinidad and Tobago: 175 cm; Dominican republic: 172 cm; Cuba: 171 cm. All the small island countries benefit from tourism, small population size, and the relative abundance of "the gifts of the sea". But when the population becomes too large (Cuba), all these positive factors cannot feed the whole nation.
Now, when we calculate a mean of world finalists in 20 male athletic events, we will typically get 184 cm. Fifteen of these events require average height above 180 cm, ten require 185 cm and more. And the mean height in the 400 m (184 cm) should actually be above 185 cm as well because it decreased only very recently, due to the influx of athletes from the exotic Caribbean nations. The three major events depending on raw speed (100/200 m, long jump) in which Western African populations have a physiological advantage, do not have too high height requirements (183-184 cm), but the 400 m hurdles need 186 cm, triple jump and 110 m hurdles need 187 cm. So how is it possible that these athletic events are full of athletes from short-statured, little populous nations that have no remarkable sports potential on the per capita basis? Isn't the whole athletics rather a joke resulting from the combination of heavy doping and negligible participation of certain world regions?
Unfortunately, there is an alternative explanation for the apparent decline in E African dominance, which is that just about everybody is now doing what it takes to succeed in the sport.
Actually for the medals that matter it looks like this:
800- Max Burgin-GOLD (gold falsely awarded to Korir but he is slow. Max didnt show up and is worlde leader)
1500- Whightman-GOLD
5000-Jakob-GOLD
3000SC- ElBakkali-GOLD (Bakkali is a European background guy)
Europeans won 100% of medals that matter
This is delusional.
You award 800 gold to Burgin, who didn’t show up. I’m not sure what your statement about Bakkali even means. He is born and raised in Africa. He is African.
Previous to Korir’s big meet dominance, Donovan Brazier won Worlds in the 800. He isn’t East African and most would not classify him strictly as European either. The horror!
What do you call the greatest high jumper from South Africa-Jacques Freitag? African? He was born and raised in Africa. We all know what Freitag & Bakkali backgrounds are.
How much Ghana or Nigeria middle and long distance runners? Find me a single name in the past?
This is not genetic but natural body morphology that help. It's a statistic affair "of how much you find" of eligible prototype.
Yah, might sound contradictory.. I was just indicating that my point relates solely to endurance and perceived east African genetic edge which was almost making many of us start to lose hope for a while. There is no doubt that many east Africans have a talent and culture for the sport, but this generation has at least shown us that who your parents are doesn't pre-determine your limits.
In sprinting, the level of dominance there of West African origin-people seems far, far greater than any east African dominance ever was, particularly for the men - this regardless of the country they live in. So I'm not sure a similar glass ceiling has been (or can be) broken.
False belief. For men, Non-west Africans hold the 400 meter & 400 H world records. Non-East Africans men hold 1 world record 800-10000
With 152 anti-doping rule violations reported in 2019, India stands behind Russia (167) and Italy (157). Russia was banned from Tokyo Olympics earlier this year.
Yah, might sound contradictory.. I was just indicating that my point relates solely to endurance and perceived east African genetic edge which was almost making many of us start to lose hope for a while. There is no doubt that many east Africans have a talent and culture for the sport, but this generation has at least shown us that who your parents are doesn't pre-determine your limits.
In sprinting, the level of dominance there of West African origin-people seems far, far greater than any east African dominance ever was, particularly for the men - this regardless of the country they live in. So I'm not sure a similar glass ceiling has been (or can be) broken.
Try to think why we see so many black sprinters from North America and the Caribbean, but far less from Europe or West Africa. What sport can potentially steal hundreds of running talents in Europe and West Africa, but is relatively marginal in terms of popularity in North America and the Caribbean?
Oh the “degraded” performances of East Africa who have more sub-13s than ever? How about this: Jakob is special and believes he can be the best. He also trains harder, longer and more effectively than his predecessors.
That's a large part due to the shoes and tracks, and the shift of Italian and Spanish managers to Uganda to unearth the new 'natural born runners' now that they can no longer feed 16 year old Kenyans EPO with impunity.
Yes, Jakob's belief has a lot to do with it. Would he have the same belief if he had been the oldest Ingebrigtsen, and didn't have his older brothers (and the likes of Jake Wightman and Nick Willis) as proof that European descent runners can compete with East Africans?
hey why do all those ugandans have the same last names as all the kenyans in the sport
Yah, might sound contradictory.. I was just indicating that my point relates solely to endurance and perceived east African genetic edge which was almost making many of us start to lose hope for a while. There is no doubt that many east Africans have a talent and culture for the sport, but this generation has at least shown us that who your parents are doesn't pre-determine your limits.
In sprinting, the level of dominance there of West African origin-people seems far, far greater than any east African dominance ever was, particularly for the men - this regardless of the country they live in. So I'm not sure a similar glass ceiling has been (or can be) broken.
Try to think why we see so many black sprinters from North America and the Caribbean, but far less from Europe or West Africa. What sport can potentially steal hundreds of running talents in Europe and West Africa, but is relatively marginal in terms of popularity in North America and the Caribbean?
coevett hop off the burner you make the same exact points on both accounts.
obviously there are no sports far more popular in america that take talent away from sprinting. basketball and football do not exist.
Try to think why we see so many black sprinters from North America and the Caribbean, but far less from Europe or West Africa. What sport can potentially steal hundreds of running talents in Europe and West Africa, but is relatively marginal in terms of popularity in North America and the Caribbean?
coevett hop off the burner you make the same exact points on both accounts.
obviously there are no sports far more popular in america that take talent away from sprinting. basketball and football do not exist.
The average basketball player is two meters tall. The average NFL player has a very typical physique - ca. 188 cm/112 kg. That's almost identical with that of a hammer thrower. How many running talents do we lose in Europe because of the hammer throw?
coevett hop off the burner you make the same exact points on both accounts.
obviously there are no sports far more popular in america that take talent away from sprinting. basketball and football do not exist.
The average basketball player is two meters tall. The average NFL player has a very typical physique - ca. 188 cm/112 kg. That's almost identical with that of a hammer thrower. How many running talents do we lose in Europe because of the hammer throw?
well seeing as hammer throw is nowhere near as popular as basketball or football, i’d say fewer.
You really are braindead, aren’t you? How did you get this way?
As we don’t know exactlywhat the reason/reasons are for improved performance amongst Europeans and the strong performances of East African-descended athletes in the West, we are free to speculate here. Social phenomena generally have multiple, not singular causes. Here are just a few possible explanations. In the real world, as opposed to your narrow mind, most of these are not mutually exclusive of one another:
-Increased European participation in distance running
-A phenomenal Norwegian talent burst on the scene, taking the running world by storm
-Media attention garnered by Jakob inspires other non-East African runners
-East African-descended athletes in the West have a lot of talent and excellent institutional support and it is evident in yheir performances at every youth level and professionally in North America and Europe
-Europeans are doping more
-East Africans are doping less
-Kenyan officials are cracking down more on dopers
-Hugo Chavez’s ghost injected Ethiopian EPO into Athing Mu in New Jersey in 2014 while she was at a K-pop concert.
-Poor race tactics or simple failure of nerve have led to losses in specific global championships; conversely, runners not expected to win big one-off races have proven tactically superior or have taken advantage of the lack of poise amongst their opponents
-Covid and Geopolitical conflicts impact training, etc., with up-and-coming athletes from poor or war torn countries adversely impacted by instability
Magahunter wrote:Just to bust your bubble,Euros have a long way to go to even be competitive with Africans. 36 total medals up for grabs 800 to marathon men and women,Euros collected a measly 6,Africans 30. And swallow this,overall 66 medals on the track minus relays,Euros could only muster all of 10.In fact 100 to 400 just 2 Euros both women made a final,not a single Euro male made it out of rounds. Euros should not bother themselves about competing with Africans,not gonna happen.It is the Asians Euros should be fretting about because the Asians are coming and are you about to blow by them
Dear colleague, you vividly demonstrate the widespread ignorance of elementary physical differences among human populations - which explains why ordinary people easily succumb to ridiculous mythologies, when watching track and field meetings on TV.
What is the most critical physical requirement for the success in most world sports? It's body height because in most sports you must reach and throw further, jump higher, lift more. And all these performances increase, when your body is larger. Short height is important only when your body itself is the subject of the sports performance (such as in gymnastics, diving or trampolining).
And who are the tallest people in today's world? Believe it or not, it's Europeans, who have utilized the 150-years long benefits of the industrial revolution. The current average height in Europe is about 178 cm in men - it's ussually below this value in Western Europe, the Mediterranean, and in the Eastern Balkans, but above it among Germanic-speaking populations (ca. 181 cm in Scandinavia, 182 cm in the Netherlands, 180 cm in Germany), Balkan highlanders (183 cm in Montenegrins, 181 cm in Bosnians, 184 cm in Dalmatians and Herzegovinians), and in the Baltic nations (182 cm in Estonians).
In contrast, most world nations still essentially remain in the middle ages: The tallest nation in Asia are Lebanese with less than 176 cm in men, followed by Israelis (175 cm) and South Koreans (174 cm). The mean male height in one-billion China is 172 cm at most, and in India it is even lower (165 cm). With the possible exception of South Sudan, for which actual data are missing, the situation in sub-Saharan Africa is similar: 176 cm in Senegal, 175 cm in Mali, 174 cm in Libya, Algeria and Tunisia. BTW, the mean height of Nigerian men is ca. 172 cm, and in almost the whole of sub-Saharan Africa, height has been decreasing as a result of the imbalance between quickly growing populations and resources. No black population of West African descent living in Western countries is taller than 177 cm (in USA and UK) - and the height in both US blacks and US whites has decreased by ca. 1 cm during the last two decades, as a result of flawed nutritional policies and fast food lifestyle.
And what about the athletic marvels from the Caribbean?
Dominica, St. Vincent and Grenadines, Grenada, Cayman Islands: 177 cm; Jamaica: 176 cm; Barbados, Bermuda, St. Lucia, Trinidad and Tobago: 175 cm; Dominican republic: 172 cm; Cuba: 171 cm. All the small island countries benefit from tourism, small population size, and the relative abundance of "the gifts of the sea". But when the population becomes too large (Cuba), all these positive factors cannot feed the whole nation.
Now, when we calculate a mean of world finalists in 20 male athletic events, we will typically get 184 cm. Fifteen of these events require average height above 180 cm, ten require 185 cm and more. And the mean height in the 400 m (184 cm) should actually be above 185 cm as well because it decreased only very recently, due to the influx of athletes from the exotic Caribbean nations. The three major events depending on raw speed (100/200 m, long jump) in which Western African populations have a physiological advantage, do not have too high height requirements (183-184 cm), but the 400 m hurdles need 186 cm, triple jump and 110 m hurdles need 187 cm. So how is it possible that these athletic events are full of athletes from short-statured, little populous nations that have no remarkable sports potential on the per capita basis? Isn't the whole athletics rather a joke resulting from the combination of heavy doping and negligible participation of certain world regions?
This gibberish you wrote is fantasy land.
The Dutch are some of the tallest on the planet,I don't see them on the podium.
As they say in football,scoreboard. The stop watch and the podium don't lie.We can see who is on the podium collecting medals and who isn't.
Jakob won that at a canter. Despite the heat, despite the fact he had ran 3 rounds of the 1500m, including a sub 3:30 just 5 days ago, despite needing to grab a water, despite hardly ever running the 5000m - he absolutely destroyed the best East African distance runners in the world over 5000m.
One Norwegian family decides to switch from the familiar route of xcountry skiing, and go into distance running, and all become elite, with the youngest (so far) dominating.
Jakob is a rare and phenomenal talent, but I doubt if there are not quite a few more Jakobs out there in Europe if they had somebody like Gjert as a father pushing them into distance running at an early age. In fact, there are several 'next Jakobs' in Scandinavia alone emerging, both male and female.
When I started posting here 5 years ago, there had only ever been one non-East African who had ever won a DL 1500m, let alone a 5000m. Few believed there would ever be a European men's 1500m champ again, let alone in a distance event. Of course, it's a large part due to better testing finally being introduced to East Africa, which has not only degraded the performances of East Africans, but it's spurred on the rest of the world, who now can believe they are competing on a more level playing field.
The myth is over.
And Max would have won the 800m, and Keely was impeded by Mu.
And let's give Jake Wightman the 100% credit he deserves for beating Jakob, who unlike as some were saying the other day, is clearly at his very best here.
I guess NBC didn't let you watch the men's 800 final. You should watch it. There's a video on YouTube. 3 Kenyans, 2 Algerians, and an Australian national born in what is today South Sudan.
It was even more pronounced in the women's 5000m. The East African athletes were on a whole different plane of existence compared to the whitegirls in the back of the pack.
Dear colleague, you vividly demonstrate the widespread ignorance of elementary physical differences among human populations - which explains why ordinary people easily succumb to ridiculous mythologies, when watching track and field meetings on TV.
What is the most critical physical requirement for the success in most world sports? It's body height because in most sports you must reach and throw further, jump higher, lift more. And all these performances increase, when your body is larger. Short height is important only when your body itself is the subject of the sports performance (such as in gymnastics, diving or trampolining).
And who are the tallest people in today's world? Believe it or not, it's Europeans, who have utilized the 150-years long benefits of the industrial revolution. The current average height in Europe is about 178 cm in men - it's ussually below this value in Western Europe, the Mediterranean, and in the Eastern Balkans, but above it among Germanic-speaking populations (ca. 181 cm in Scandinavia, 182 cm in the Netherlands, 180 cm in Germany), Balkan highlanders (183 cm in Montenegrins, 181 cm in Bosnians, 184 cm in Dalmatians and Herzegovinians), and in the Baltic nations (182 cm in Estonians).
In contrast, most world nations still essentially remain in the middle ages: The tallest nation in Asia are Lebanese with less than 176 cm in men, followed by Israelis (175 cm) and South Koreans (174 cm). The mean male height in one-billion China is 172 cm at most, and in India it is even lower (165 cm). With the possible exception of South Sudan, for which actual data are missing, the situation in sub-Saharan Africa is similar: 176 cm in Senegal, 175 cm in Mali, 174 cm in Libya, Algeria and Tunisia. BTW, the mean height of Nigerian men is ca. 172 cm, and in almost the whole of sub-Saharan Africa, height has been decreasing as a result of the imbalance between quickly growing populations and resources. No black population of West African descent living in Western countries is taller than 177 cm (in USA and UK) - and the height in both US blacks and US whites has decreased by ca. 1 cm during the last two decades, as a result of flawed nutritional policies and fast food lifestyle.
And what about the athletic marvels from the Caribbean?
Dominica, St. Vincent and Grenadines, Grenada, Cayman Islands: 177 cm; Jamaica: 176 cm; Barbados, Bermuda, St. Lucia, Trinidad and Tobago: 175 cm; Dominican republic: 172 cm; Cuba: 171 cm. All the small island countries benefit from tourism, small population size, and the relative abundance of "the gifts of the sea". But when the population becomes too large (Cuba), all these positive factors cannot feed the whole nation.
Now, when we calculate a mean of world finalists in 20 male athletic events, we will typically get 184 cm. Fifteen of these events require average height above 180 cm, ten require 185 cm and more. And the mean height in the 400 m (184 cm) should actually be above 185 cm as well because it decreased only very recently, due to the influx of athletes from the exotic Caribbean nations. The three major events depending on raw speed (100/200 m, long jump) in which Western African populations have a physiological advantage, do not have too high height requirements (183-184 cm), but the 400 m hurdles need 186 cm, triple jump and 110 m hurdles need 187 cm. So how is it possible that these athletic events are full of athletes from short-statured, little populous nations that have no remarkable sports potential on the per capita basis? Isn't the whole athletics rather a joke resulting from the combination of heavy doping and negligible participation of certain world regions?
This gibberish you wrote is fantasy land.
The Dutch are some of the tallest on the planet,I don't see them on the podium.
As they say in football,scoreboard. The stop watch and the podium don't lie.We can see who is on the podium collecting medals and who isn't.
