What a place this is. If you claim (or agree with the AIU, World Athletics, WADA, and multiple media organizations such as ARD etc.) that East Africa has a massive doping problem, you get hounded as a 'racist' and demands you are permanently banned. Yet, it's ok to repeatedly call for unrestricted doping in a sport in which the majority of the participants are kids. This in the week that the 3rd fastest 800m runner in history was caught taking a highly carcegenic drug in order to win.
Sometimes I feel dirtier than a weekend spent in a Calcutta sewer just browsing in here for 10 minutes.
What a place this is. If you claim (or agree with the AIU, World Athletics, WADA, and multiple media organizations such as ARD etc.) that East Africa has a massive doping problem, you get hounded as a 'racist' and demands you are permanently banned. Yet, it's ok to repeatedly call for unrestricted doping in a sport in which the majority of the participants are kids. This in the week that the 3rd fastest 800m runner in history was caught taking a highly carcegenic drug in order to win.
Sometimes I feel dirtier than a weekend spent in a Calcutta sewer just browsing in here for 10 minutes.
The majority of participants in all sports are kids so what does that have to do with anything? The reason people call you a racist is because of your pattern of attacking Africans and defending white people - as though white people wouldn't dope. You should feel dirty.
No, not really. Athletics is a sport that nearly every schoolchild in the world is involved in. It's not true of boxing, for example. It's not true of cycling (as a sport). I give those two examples because they are often cited (with some good reason) as sports in which everybody does dope, and most of the fans don't perhaps care.
I know I shouldn't get upset by you sick freaks, given that 'you' are probably 2 or 3 paid shills for some evil creature such as Aden or Pineda. Then there are a few weak-minded imbeciles here who believe the 'Coevett is racist' lie that you perpetuate, or simply cowardly join in to deflect accusations of racism against themselves (zxcvzxcv and Casual Observer are examples). And then there are a few other moral free individuals here who really do get off on watching doped up Africans run fast and die young for their entertainment.
Evidence fallacy always comes up. Burden of proof is on the vendor that the product is legit.
British self-testing is as convincing as east German self-testing. Did it catch Alan Wells?
Next clown please
An athlete can’t help what period they competed in. You are casting aspersions on Coe because testing wasn’t as good then as now. Well the same would therefore apply to everyone in that era. Yet he participated in a transitional period and was tested regularly out of competition towards the end of his career.
Ryun and Snell took part during an era where there was no testing at all and steroids were legal. They too produced outlier performances, so by your reasoning they must also be dopers, as must anyone else before Coe. It is very weak and lazy to claim Coe was doping, as as others have stated there is no evidence at all.
There is no evidence, and almost impossible to prove a negative. On the other hand, not all Britons were in principle against blood doping in the early 1980s:
1960 and 1964 Winter Olympic representative (XC-skiing/biathlon) Lt. Col John Moore also did some blood doping experimenting in the military in 1978 in the UK.
back then athletes usually only took one drug that did everything,or maybe two if they were able.usually dianabol,turinabol or testosterone.now they use concoctions of HGH,nandrolone,primabolan,winstrol clenbuterol insulan and anavar sometimes mixed in together.athletes are much more muscled now,and diet,and gym training alone cannot do that.the difference is the drugs.more anabolic,less androgenic.the east germans did loads of gym work,and they didnt look as muscled as todays athletes.
There is no evidence, and almost impossible to prove a negative. On the other hand, not all Britons were in principle against blood doping in the early 1980s:
1960 and 1964 Winter Olympic representative (XC-skiing/biathlon) Lt. Col John Moore also did some blood doping experimenting in the military in 1978 in the UK.
I have not claimed on here that all Brits are clean. I said that the UK had better testing than most during the 80's. Of course it wasn't as robust as it is now, as it was 40 years ago! It's called evolution. Just like the testing in the 80's was leaps and bounds better than what there had been in the 60's.
There were athletes caught during this time as they had random testing at UK competitions during most of the 80's and all world records and championship medalists were also tested. By the mid 80's there was out of competition testing of UK athletes by the National Federation and Coe's profile meant he was one of the most often tested. He was also running very decently in 89 when the IAAF started testing randomly out of season.
With regards to Allan Wells, there were claims from a disgruntled ex British Doctor that he supplied some of the Scottish sprinters with steroids in the late 70's. Only a few sprinter names were mentioned, including Wells, who denied it. Once it came to national interest about 10 years ago, the Doctor involved was already dead and it was only brought up by one of Wells's fellow athletes who clearly had an axe to grind. Now, I'm not saying there isn't some truth in it, but not sure thetre was enough to have convicted in a court of law had it been a criminal case. What I think is more significant about that whole episode, is that it DID eventually come out. There will always be someone, somewhere, who down the line will know of these sorts of events and will spill the beans to make some money.
But Coe has been retired 33 years, and chose a very unpopular profession to go into - politics. The press have found out about affairs, relations with his wife, financial activity, etc, but never once about cheating in his sport. If he had ever involved himself in drugs there are people out there who know and who would have evidence. The temptation to make money would be too great. But there has never been even a sniff of untoward behaviour in that respect. Moreover, if he had cheated I really don't think he would have continued with such a high profile career and it would be truly ridiculous of the IAAF (members of which would surely have an inkling) to vote for his as President immediately after all the corruption and illegal practices of the man in office before him!
There are cases of blood doping having taken place in the 80's, but all are of long distance runners. A few Finns competing at 10k admitted to it in the 70's and some of the Italian 5000/10000m squad tried it in the run up to 84, Cova among them. There are no known accounts of 800 or 1500 runners admitting to or being caught using the procedure.
Coe was also instrumental in getting the practice banned at the end of the 85 season while working for the Sports Council. It would be a strange thing to actively advocate and push through as legislation half way through a career, something which would stop him or effect him detrimentally for the rest of his career, don't you think.
You also have to remember that at the time of these athletes talking in the newspaper clip (1984), blood doping wasn't actually banned. Vainio was caught having blood doped in LA due to there being traces of steroids in his reinfused blood that was sampled at the Olympics. So while ethically wrong to do it, those athletes were not actually breaking the rules, which is probably why Coe called for it to be banned in 85. Thereafter there could be no doubt it was wrong.
Even during this period of 'sporadic' testing, some sprinters and throwers were caught for using steroids and a handful of distance athletes for blood doping, so the testing did work at some level. I can't remember any male middle distance guys being caught, which might just be coincidence or luck, but the fact that the general consensus at the time was that those events were not affected by drugs in the same way, as they didn't feel there would be much benefit from using them. Of course we know now that this is not the case, but I've never seen evidence of a sophisticated use of a variety of different substances that help middle distance athletes (not including females who would obviously benefit from male hormones in a far more drastic manner) in that era.
- There does exist scientific experimental data from the Soviet Union and from the University of New Mexico showing that blood doping improves both 800 m and 1500 m running times. Francesco Conconi also specifically claimed that it gives roughly a 3-5 s (~1.5-2.0 %) boost in a 1500 m run. Is the boost enormous? Not necessarily. And is it possible to reach a similar boost with high altitude training? Possibly.
- We know almost certainly only fraction of blood doping use in the 1970s and 1980s (or even late 1960s). For instance, it is even documented that by the 1976 Montreal Summer Olympics, athletes from the US, France, West Germany, Switzerland etc asked for assistance in the procedure from blood doping researchers. Nevertheless, the amount of confirmed cases and even speculation in these countries regarding blood doping in the 1970s is close to zero, ie. we have no idea, who the athletes were (of whom some likely found way to blood dope). The procedure doesn't need enormous logistics, therefore it is far from given that anything would've leaked out if Seb Coe had used blood doping.
- There was no test for blood doping in the 1980s nor was there any serious prospects for one in the near future in the early 1980s, therefore any anti-doping comments can be as well PR stunts or even serious interest in wanting to root out the method despite using it. Some Finns involved in blood doping logistics lobbied heavily for blood doping ban and mandatory testing from ~1980 onwards. Soviet team doctor (Alex Kuznetsov) said their skiers could voluntarily submit blood samples in 1988 at the Calgary Winter Olympics despite many of then having extra blood in their veins.
It is known that athletes tended to switch from steroids to testosterone when the detection methods improved and OOC testing was introsuced, and there are next-to-no testosterone positives in endurance events, because of short detection window + runners tend not to consume enormous amounts.
I should add that it is almost certainly a myth that "tainted blood" caused the steroid positive of Martti Vainio in 1984. From long half life of the steroid he tested positive for, it was determined, that its origin had to be a subcutaneous injection.
There is no evidence, and almost impossible to prove a negative. On the other hand, not all Britons were in principle against blood doping in the early 1980s:
1960 and 1964 Winter Olympic representative (XC-skiing/biathlon) Lt. Col John Moore also did some blood doping experimenting in the military in 1978 in the UK.
I have not claimed on here that all Brits are clean. I said that the UK had better testing than most during the 80's. Of course it wasn't as robust as it is now, as it was 40 years ago! It's called evolution. Just like the testing in the 80's was leaps and bounds better than what there had been in the 60's.
There were athletes caught during this time as they had random testing at UK competitions during most of the 80's and all world records and championship medalists were also tested. By the mid 80's there was out of competition testing of UK athletes by the National Federation and Coe's profile meant he was one of the most often tested. He was also running very decently in 89 when the IAAF started testing randomly out of season.
With regards to Allan Wells, there were claims from a disgruntled ex British Doctor that he supplied some of the Scottish sprinters with steroids in the late 70's. Only a few sprinter names were mentioned, including Wells, who denied it. Once it came to national interest about 10 years ago, the Doctor involved was already dead and it was only brought up by one of Wells's fellow athletes who clearly had an axe to grind. Now, I'm not saying there isn't some truth in it, but not sure thetre was enough to have convicted in a court of law had it been a criminal case. What I think is more significant about that whole episode, is that it DID eventually come out. There will always be someone, somewhere, who down the line will know of these sorts of events and will spill the beans to make some money.
But Coe has been retired 33 years, and chose a very unpopular profession to go into - politics. The press have found out about affairs, relations with his wife, financial activity, etc, but never once about cheating in his sport. If he had ever involved himself in drugs there are people out there who know and who would have evidence. The temptation to make money would be too great. But there has never been even a sniff of untoward behaviour in that respect. Moreover, if he had cheated I really don't think he would have continued with such a high profile career and it would be truly ridiculous of the IAAF (members of which would surely have an inkling) to vote for his as President immediately after all the corruption and illegal practices of the man in office before him!
There are cases of blood doping having taken place in the 80's, but all are of long distance runners. A few Finns competing at 10k admitted to it in the 70's and some of the Italian 5000/10000m squad tried it in the run up to 84, Cova among them. There are no known accounts of 800 or 1500 runners admitting to or being caught using the procedure.
Coe was also instrumental in getting the practice banned at the end of the 85 season while working for the Sports Council. It would be a strange thing to actively advocate and push through as legislation half way through a career, something which would stop him or effect him detrimentally for the rest of his career, don't you think.
You also have to remember that at the time of these athletes talking in the newspaper clip (1984), blood doping wasn't actually banned. Vainio was caught having blood doped in LA due to there being traces of steroids in his reinfused blood that was sampled at the Olympics. So while ethically wrong to do it, those athletes were not actually breaking the rules, which is probably why Coe called for it to be banned in 85. Thereafter there could be no doubt it was wrong.
Even during this period of 'sporadic' testing, some sprinters and throwers were caught for using steroids and a handful of distance athletes for blood doping, so the testing did work at some level. I can't remember any male middle distance guys being caught, which might just be coincidence or luck, but the fact that the general consensus at the time was that those events were not affected by drugs in the same way, as they didn't feel there would be much benefit from using them. Of course we know now that this is not the case, but I've never seen evidence of a sophisticated use of a variety of different substances that help middle distance athletes (not including females who would obviously benefit from male hormones in a far more drastic manner) in that era.
Are you really never tired in repeating the same old (weak) arguments over and over again, Deanouk (Welsh Wizard, Peer Mediator, wtfunny, ukathleticscoach (and probably some more))?
Really never?
The GDR athletes were also tested.
European athletes doped in the 1980s. Sprinters, for sure. Long distance runners, definitely. Jumpers and throwers, no doubt. But not the Holy Grail of athletes who choose to compete in the 8 and 15. Never.
Is it a coincidence that Coe peak always come at the end of August during the 80s?
Cram Is 'Inspired' ''The man is obviously inspired,'' Coe responded. ''He's positively flying at this moment. I'm not sure if even at my peak, which comes at the end of August, I could run 3 minutes 46.31 seconds like that.
Ran 1:41 on a crappy track. I don't need any more information to render my opinion. Others can have theirs. That's what's great about America. No doubt in my mind, especially after looking at the video.
