Wejo: How did you run 7:30 pace for training?

Wejo wasn't gaining any fitness from the 100+ miles he was putting in?

I tell my truth and someone down arrowed me. Interesting.

I appreciate much of what you stated. Many of your experiences were also my experiences. Some runners can have flawless sprinting form, look great running 60 second laps. And many runners can also look great running at 7:30 per mile pace and slower. I pronate only when I run slowly. Numerous injuries tied into slow running and my pronation.

Rarely do athletes look good and run efficiently at all speeds. Many XC runners look awful the final 150m of XC races.

Me too. Although to be fair, that's not the case here. He explicitly starts by saying "I am way slower than you ..." yet I still struggle to run slow, how did you do it given how fast you were. Very different.

This is wrong. I used to run 20 miles per week with hard workouts, then after many years of not running, at 35 (so not prime age) I just started hobby jogging. I got to 55 miles per week of only jogging for about a year, with almost zero runs under 9 min/mile pace. I went from a 41 min 10k to a 38:30, and after only 4 weeks with one set of speed work per week, I dropped my 1500 pb from 4:46 to 4:37. Jogging high mileage is magic when you do it for the first time after having been low mileage your whole life.

In the 1970s we raced a lot as you can see. Competition was the lifeblood of the sport. We lived it and breathed it. If not for competition I would have never been a runner. I could never just train and run time-trials for months on end. Truth be told, we would have been better served by not running a meaningless 10k the week before nationals,. Two fewer races would have been ideal in retrospect.

As for the mileage, that was my choice, as most runners on my team ran 80 to 100mpw. But my goals for the year (track) were bigger than everybody else. I was hungry, and it paid off.

Only one teammate of mine put in 120-140mpw. He had similar success.

I think by form "going away" it's more a question of feeling very uncomfortable.

I'm 65, and naturally have a high-cadence (190+), and at 8 min miling, I've got a stride of about 3ft. I'd guess at 9:00 min miling it would be more like 2ft.

If I'm not really tired my steady run in generally in the 7:30 range. If I've done a long run or harder session the previous day it's 8:00 - 8:15, much slower than that means I'd have the day off.

BUT and a big BUT is that at this age, I'm only running around 35 to at most 40 miles per week and the recovery runs are often only 3 or 4 miles (and really run for no other purpose than to burn calories, important at this age). I'm also not looking to run much beyond 5000m in races.

At this stage, also, I've got 50 years of running, so it's a very different proposition.

I think for a younger (much) runner it would be more a question of what is optimum realistic mileage, and then it's a question of how fast can I go and still recover enough to hit marks in harder sessions.

It then may require practice - neurological training - to become comfortable at that pace.

The alternative that works for me is to get off roads and on to some trails where I can't get rolling and build momentum.

Go look at Joe Klecker’s Strava, he recently ran 13:04 and won the U.S. champs in the 10,000m. Most of his easy runs are 6:30-6:40 pace (at altitude). 2.5 minutes slower than his 5,000m PB at sea level. If he can run 2.5 minutes slower than his 5,000m PB pace, surely anybody else can do the same.

I am aware that Malmo and others ran quite high mileage during his era. I am surprised that people don’t really train like that anymore. On the other hand, people are running quite a bit faster these days, at least on the track, and running close to half that mileage.

I was going to link to this article after reading the back and forth with malmo earlier in this thread.

Also, if I remember correctly from his book “Inside A Marathon”, Scott Fauble’s easy pace is 7:00 per mile.

I think this is a fairly common misconception, but said with such authority it is also a shocking display of ignorance.

I think it's also a common misconception that is important to maintain your best and most efficient form on easy days. The point of easy days is to get your heart up around 60% or 70% of max while jogging as many hours as makes sense for you with the least possible fatigue and injury risk. It should go without saying that you get a TON of cardiovascular benefit from this. Your heart is pumping as much blood as it ever will when it's beating at 60%-70% of it's max rate.

You clearly don’t run. Thats not the case at all. My normal comfortable, conversational pace is about 7 min/mile. I’m 55 and trying to make my easy runs reeeeally easy so I can recover better for workouts. Trying to do 830-9’s is hard….feel like I lose form, shuffle and beat the crap out of my toes. 3 black toe nails to prove it. But, Ive only been running and racing since age 10, so maybe when I get to your level of experience I will have more knowledge and be capable of criticizing others.

A small story time to point out why your logical fallacy is a fallacy.

Let’s go back to my soph year of highschool. I was going into the season in 20-21 minute 5k shape. One of our assistant coaches swore by running all of your miles at sub 7:00 pace. His 5k PB is around 17:30. All of his Strava runs are 6:00-7:00 pace for 3-8 miles at a time. Hes gone on runs with me at that pace and he was fully conversational.

He told me the best way to get good at 5k was to stop running junk miles and focus on those sub 7:00 miles (specifically trying to break 18 in the 5k) I ran 19:1x as a PB that season, and then fully embraced that training method. Come next XC season, I ran 17:27, training essentially exactly how he trained. I noticed when hitting that 5:40 mile pace, it felt very uncomfortable the entire time, I often positive split all of my races, and my breathing was never under control.

Next season, I learn about the effects of polarization in training, the physiology of aerobic base building, and run most easy runs at 8:00 pace +\- 15 seconds a mile, with higher mileage and tempo/short speed work thrown in. I run 16:0x at footlocker that season as my PB.

I’ve now improved to 14:5x in the 5k using that method. He was wrong. That’s not the best way to do it, and he had loads more experience in running than me.

The reasons I see for people taking their easy runs too fast goes as follows:

- Ego running. Lots of mediocre runners trying to prove something do this, most fast runners seem to have nothing to prove because the race times speak for themselves. You see this a ton with high level JV and low level Varsity high schoolers.

- Lack of discipline. Running slow isn’t fun. It doesn’t feel challenging and you just want to get it over with.

- Mechanics feel weird. It doesn’t feel right running slow. The answer is work on fixing your form for this, not run faster and damage your training. That’s like an 800m runner avoiding speed work because he has a strained hamstring but it feels fine when he runs slower, so he just does LSD and fails miserably come race day. You can’t just ignore an aspect of training because you don’t want to fix it.

Ten years older and a bit slower, but that's exactly what my experience is. If I go for a steady run when I'm not tired, I'm hitting around 7:30 per mile.

I've got around it by keeping the recovery days short - 3 or 4 miles - rather than run further at 9:00 per mile.

I think that works when you're 65; you've got 50 years of training under you; and you're only racing 3000-5000m, but it probably impacted me when I was younger. I used to do about 50 miles per week, but very little slower than 6:00 per mile, and I think I'd have had greater aerobic development with some longer slower runs, even though I was hitting my hard days OK.

Always glad to see harmful training advice downvoted.
https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/training-in-the-grey-zone-how-to-avoid-the-zone-3-plateau/

How many former high school / college runners tried to get back into shape after some time off and ended up plateauing?

"People who don't try as hard as me are faster."

Well maybe that's a sign you're trying too hard, numbnuts!

I saw this last year even with my marathon build. I did 1600 miles and I learned the value of 9:30-10:00 recovery miles. Before, from '17 to '20, I'd try to hammer everything between 8-8:30 and just wind up in a weird gray zone.

I was able to do more track work and tempo reps at 7:00 or faster by having more mileage at 9:30-10:00 on EZ days. And being able to build to 55-65 mpw in some weeks with no injuries was huge.

I do think I'll be working on core strength and hills more this year even though my marathon I'm training for is flat.

If the whole point of easy days is to get your heart rate at 60-70%, would cross training these not be almost as ideal? I understand there is more benefit to running by actually running, but if you can do three 1 hour runs at 60-70% max HR for easy days each week, or you could do five 1 hour cross training sessions where you are still achieving the 60-70% max HR, couldn't you still achieve greater levels of fitness while also improving recovery / reducing stress on your body? Thinking elliptical for most of this