Petition to increase Ncaa women’s xc to 8k no 10k for men

consider this wrote:

In cross country the distance needs to be long enough to spread out the runners. In the regular season 8K is enough for the men but there would be people on top of each other at nationals if it weren't longer. Already (depending on the course) there are dozens and dozens of people finishing between 30 and 31 minutes, for example.

Should the women run longer? 8K instead of 6K? I'm not tuned into their results to say if they need to be further spread out. Even if they don't need to, I couldn't see a reason to have an objection to their running the longer distance if that's what they want to do. It would be silly to shorten the men's race for some misplaced sense of equality, though.

The spread out argument doesn’t really hold water. Women run 6k, almost half the distance of the men without spread problems. D3 runs 8k championship without a spread problem. Besides, less spread makes for more interesting racing.

That's a non-sequitur. The fact that women and D3 runners are spread out enough does not mean that D1 men are or would be in an 8K national race. There's a massive talent difference between D1 men and the other two groups you mentioned. D1 men are more tightly bunched in their 10K nationals that D1 women are for 6K.

don't forget about this wrote:

change is good wrote:

The spread out argument doesn’t really hold water. Women run 6k, almost half the distance of the men without spread problems. D3 runs 8k championship without a spread problem. Besides, less spread makes for more interesting racing.

That's a non-sequitur. The fact that women and D3 runners are spread out enough does not mean that D1 men are or would be in an 8K national race. There's a massive talent difference between D1 men and the other two groups you mentioned. D1 men are more tightly bunched in their 10K nationals that D1 women are for 6K.

NXN runs 5k for boys… seriously this isn’t the popsicle stick days anymore. Tight bunches at the finish is a non-problem.

12k Super XC Shoes wrote:

MENS 12K RACE through grass, mud, haybales, and hills!

That should be an Olympic event, for men and women.

Cross-country is one piece of USA T&F. You have stated you were a 5000m & 10000m college runner. As you know, former 3000mSC/5000m/10000m college runners have WAY TOO much influence on USA T&F decisions. You are not the only 5000m & 10000m runner on here. I feel I need to speak for broader USA T&F needs as opposed to what is best for 3000mSC/5000m/10000m runners. Some posters do not like my opinions but my statements are based on analysis for the betterment of USA T&F in aggregate. Some of us need to step away from our event what ever was our event. I showed up for middle school T&F to throw javelin. I was told immediately, javelin throw is not a standard event. I still advocate for javelin throw. You may say many great 800m men & women did not compete in XC. I am sure you would agree, it would be best for high school 400m & 800m athletes to compete in high school XC and I am sure you would agree it would be best for 800m specialists in college to compete in fall XC. After Emmanuel Korir declined to demand a XC waiver, UTEP, how can anyone argue 800m specialists with a fast 400m PB should not compete in college fall XC? No need to make XC a burden for 800m athletes. For female 3000mSC/5000m/10000m college runners, 5K XC to 6K XC is no big deal. There are plenty of examples of female 800m & 1500m college runners with sub-19 5K XC PB and slower than 25mn 6K XC PB. Is 6K XC really a problem? Do most female collegiate XC runners really want 8K XC?

don't forget about this wrote:

That's a non-sequitur. The fact that women and D3 runners are spread out enough does not mean that D1 men are or would be in an 8K national race. There's a massive talent difference between D1 men and the other two groups you mentioned. D1 men are more tightly bunched in their 10K nationals that D1 women are for 6K.

The "spread" argument is a pretty antiquated one that more explains why the 10k @ NCAA started, not why it should remain. There were 249 men's finishers at NCAA XC '19. Nuttycombe's 8k that year had 230: no issues with being too crowded. Pre-Nats at FSU this year 299 finishers: didn't hear any concerns. Most of the course limitations occur in the first 1-2k; I highly doubt the extra 2k on the back end is having THAT big an impact on how spread out things are 2 minutes into a race. We have chips & finish line cameras because things evolve.

If we want to grow our sport, one area is having an identifiable race distance. For example:

New AD: "How far are these cross country races anyways?"

XC Coach: "Well it depends on which gender. And what time of the year it is..."

To the "injury" perspective, that feels like allowing coaches who are stuck in their ways or already pushing the boundaries for their female athletes dictate what the experience will be for all.

The main concern that I've heard people talk about is something that's been mentioned here. Would XC 8k for women discourage more girls/women from competing in XC in college? How would that affect men's xctf from a title ix standpoint? I'd imagine it would have some impact but not entirely sure.

It never made sense to me why men ran 8k all season and then 10k at championships, but I dont think racing 10Ks all year is the answer so a move to 8K makes sense.

I also always have felt that 6k caters more to milers than 10K runners, which feels odd for cross country which IMO should benefit more 5K-10K fitness, so I like the change for women as well

change is good wrote:

NXN runs 5k for boys… seriously this isn’t the popsicle stick days anymore. .

I miss those popsicle stick days.

American's can't take the 10k race anymore--too weak and lazy. For NCAA's and all Americans, bring all races down to a 5K. Let the rest of the world be strong and compete at greater distances. (Hope you find the sarcasm here).

Sorry to break it to you, but nothing is going to grow our sport.

Why 8K? To make it more "American" why not 5 miles. 5 Miles is only 153 feet more than an 8K.

When you talk to most Americans that don't run their eyes glaze over when you mention kilometers.

Given in D1 that the scholarships are 12.6 men/18 for women, how would you recruit/determine who gets scholarship money knowing that the women are going up to either 8 or 10k, and the men either stay at 10k or drop to 8k?

I'm thinking (unless you're a Portland/Oklahoma State/Gonzaga/Furman that goes all in on distance and doesn't have a true track and field team) this might affect how you recruit an 800/1500 type, or a kid that comes from a low mileage high school, but I don't know the answer.

aztec the moronic wrote:

8k for women would be an unmitigated DISASTER.

A good recruit for a D1 mid-major is a 5:00 miler that ran 25 miles per week in high school. 3 months after she graduates high school she has to race an 8k? You are asking for triple the amount of injuries.

You realize that most freshman men in the NCAA run 70+ miles per week to prepare for the 8k?

One of my boys, who built up to 60/65 mpw as a senior asked what I would recommend to my daughter for weekly mileage, 50 mpw? I responded, "why, they only run 6k xc in college, build up to 40 would be good enough."

Certainly my answer would be different if they had to run the 8k.

I think they should do this with only women in mind; get the women bumped up to the challenge of 8k and leave the men at 10k. For the men though, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Canada did this a few years ago - no drop off in competition; in fact, our women athletes coming through the canadian system are arguably better than our men at the international level.

change is good wrote:

8k standard distance for both genders would be a great change. 10k is too long for men to run all season and 6k is a horrible distance.

There isn't a school in the nation that races 10ks all season. All invitationals are 8k or less for men. There's a reason 10k is the championship distance. It separates the great cross country runners from the pretenders. There is absolutely no reason to decrease the men's distance.

I'm for an increase in the women's race, though being close with one of the best teams in the nation, I think there are few women who would agree.

Everyone here is getting lost in the weeds here. Finish line density in the modern era of chip timing? Really? Women quitting because it’s too hard? Seriously?

These are all excuses of people who just don’t like change and are grasping at straws to find logic to keep it how it is.

This is a much bigger issue. Just make the distances the same. It’s how it should be. Plain and simple. Just make it happen.

ared wrote:

change is good wrote:

8k standard distance for both genders would be a great change. 10k is too long for men to run all season and 6k is a horrible distance.

10k it too long???? Wtf is this beta doing on a running website?

plus it's not like the men race 6 or 7 10ks in a season-conferences are only 8k anyway and only regionals and NCAAs are 10k. hardly an onerous workload for distance guys...the 1st race or 2 after camps are run like workouts anyways now.

fghrunner wrote:

It never made sense to me why men ran 8k all season and then 10k at championships, but I dont think racing 10Ks all year is the answer so a move to 8K makes sense.

I went to a school in the old days that ran 6+ 10k races within a 9 week period leading up to XC NCAAs. 10k is only 2k more than 8k but it breaks you down. I was never healthy by the time NCAAs came around. I endorse racing 10k only at NCAA regionals and nationals.