RIP Norm Macdonald: How Macdonald's Simple-Truth Logic Could Help Solve the Transgender/Intersex Crisis In Women's Sports

The over/under on the age of responders on this thread is 20.5.

Precious Roy wrote:

Wrong. 1.5 out of 100k births is just the rate for DSD XY gonadal dysgenesis. And that is just one of several DSDs. Genital ambiguity has an estimated rate of 1:2000-1:4500. For a very long time, these issues were just swept under the rug as doctors would make a guess as to sex and advise parents to perform surgery based on a guess. Now, in sports, trying to draw bright lines ignores the difficult issues that arise from the many different ways DSDs present in people. As long as people like rojo think that it is just as simple as women with testicles and high testosterone, we are never going to get to a fair resolution to this issue and will just systematically exclude anyone who is not 100% female sex at birth.

You’re right - my bad. But even if it is 1:2000, the average OB-GYN would see one per about 20 yrs. And genital ambiguity is not necessarily going to result in DSD.

Doesn’t it speak to you that these incredibly rare people are dominating several events in Women’s T&F?

You’re right

industry car wrote:

Rojo, this is really disgraceful stuff. You’re using Norm Macdonald’s memory to prove your point about intersex athletes? Sick

You clearly don't know anything about Norm or about comedy. Norm was famous for saying the obvious that other people were afraid to say. This is EXACTLY the type of thing that Norm would make jokes about. The absolute BEST way to honor Norm is to continue to speak common sense on issues where people seemed to have gone off the deep end.

In fact, Norm has made several jokes relating to this issue. Watch the video that a previous poster posted, especially the 2nd half.

I hesitate posting this to the lets run board because this is supposed to be kept private, but I actually personally know someone who has an intersex condition - XY chromosomes but fully female

in terms of being intersex, her case isn't as complicated in that she actually doesn't produce any testosterone and finished in the middle of the pack in all high school races. You could not tell she was intersex just by looking at her.... she literally looks like any other girl.

Should she compete in boys races? HELL NO. yes she has XY chromosomes, but she has a vagina and the outward physical appearance of a girl. she is at no advantage (maybe a slight disadvantage if I had to guess).

she didn't tell anyone because there was no reason too (the only reason she told me and my sister is because 1) we are very close family friends and 2) one of my siblings is transgender).

Thoughts on transwomen in sports--from a transwoman--who no longer runs, but once competed as a male:

1. It's complicated. There is no easy solution.

2. There must be a balance between three factors: fairness, inclusiveness, and safety.

3. This balance should change with the age and level of competition. On one end of the spectrum--school children--the emphasis should be on inclusivity-- everyone is allowed to participate. As you approach the elite level, the balance shifts to "Fairness." At this level (medals and money) I feel transwomen should have completed sexual reassignment surgery and their testosterone levels should be within normal range for a women. (Admittedly, high school is gray area.)

4. Standards/policies should vary from sport to sport. What works for one sport, won't work for another. For example, the standards for women's archery, I would imagine would be quite different than those for women's weightlifting.

Second this.

Dwightarm wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

Everyone at and on LRC: please stop suggesting that women with PCOS produce T in the normal male range.

No one suggested women with PCOS produce T in the 'normal male range.'

There is a lot of evidence that women who have PCOS can produce body hair, deeper voices, but most importantly greater muscle strength.

Run ragged has conveniently ignored this point...

Does anyone have proof that Rojo has functioning testes? Is it possible that this entire witch-hunt is a vendetta that is inspired by Rojo's desire to claim women's WRs at a variety of distances? (Well, I guess he's -- err, sorry, they're -- at least faster than WR for the half-marathon, but I don't know much else about their "career"

good lord....did you just really use Norm McDonalds's death as an excuse to make ANOTHER post about the transgender 'crisis'.

have you no class?

Embarrassingly clumsy shoehorning if I've ever seen one.......

kinda funny how rojo never gave 2 shts about women athletes until he started his own personal crusade to 'save' them

The person you're speaking of most likely has CAIS. XY persons with CAIS are over-represented in women's elite international athletics, and I believe there is evidence that they have physical characteristics that put them at an advantage over XX female people in sports - such as their height, skeletal structure, narrower pelvis, physiology, hormonal profile and never having to deal with the drawbacks of having female reproductive anatomy and physiology. However, CAIS is not one of the XY DSDs that's currently a contentious issue in women's sports generally - and it's not one that I and other women I know are up in arms about.

Persons with CAIS have been allowed to compete in women's sports since the late 1980s when Maria José Martínez-Patiño, a Spanish hurdler with XY CAIS, successfully challenged the IAAF's mandatory sex chromosome testing that from 1966 to 1992 excluded anyone with XY chromosomes (and later the SRY gene too) from elite women's international athletics. The Dutee Chand case confirmed that WA allows persons with CAIS to compete in women's events without restriction, and showed that WA is willing to be open and flexible even where AIS isn't complete too.

The XY DSD athletes whose participation in women's sports is the big issue today have a handful of DSDs that cause them not only to have testes that produce male levels of T, but to have fully functioning androgen receptors that make their bodies respond to the T that their testes make as males typically do. These athletes have been through the male puberties of infancy and adolescence and have obtained all the physical advantages that males gain from these processes that give them such huge advantages over XX female people in most sports. Some can father children.

So long as women's sports could exclude persons with the XY DSDs that provide the glaring physical advantages that males typically have - such as XY 5-ARD, Caster Semenya's DSD - I'd be willing to compromise and let athletes with CAIS be included.

But it's not up to me personally. I think the issue of who gets to be included in women's sports should be up to a large body of intelligent, well-informed and judicious women to decide. After all, it was the male-run and male-dominated sports governing bodies who decided that women's sports should be "inclusive" of some XY persons in the first place - and IMO, they've done a poor job dealing with the consequences of their decisions. And the people who have paid the heaviest price in turn have been female athletes. The reality is, the ethos of "diversity and inclusion" for some biological males in women's sports has meant adversity and exclusion for a great number of females. And it's created confusion all around.

griles17 wrote:

Dwightarm wrote:

No one suggested women with PCOS produce T in the 'normal male range.'

There is a lot of evidence that women who have PCOS can produce body hair, deeper voices, but most importantly greater muscle strength.

Run ragged has conveniently ignored this point...

No I haven't ignored it. I just didn't address it. Which is a different thing entirely.

I didn't address it because women with PCOS are XX females with ovaries. As the very name of their medical condition - polycystic ovary syndrome - says.

Women's sports are for female people, meaning XX people without an SRY gene and who also do not have testes, male T levels or male physiology that allows them to make use of T as males typically do.

IMO, women's sports should be for ALL female people, including those with hyperandrogenism aka "naturally elevated levels of testosterone," those who "produce body hair" (which, BTW nearly all women do under any circumstances), have deep voices and have exceptional muscle strength for our sex.

You seem to think that XX female people in women's sports should be discriminated against and our participation restricted if we are chronically or transiently hyperandrogenic, hirsute, have deep voices and are strong and well-muscled for our sex. I disagree.

I am for women's sports being open to all XX female people with any health conditions, naturally-produced level of T, body shape, amount of muscularity, manner of appearance, dress and hair style, sexual orientation, politics, gender identities and so on without restriction - so long as the female people are not doping with PEDs. This means stone butches as much as "girly" het women and lipstick lesbians; those who call themselves trans and/or non-binary; those with hairy-chins, legs, pits, bushes and bodies as well as the clean-waxed; the zaftig ones with large-breasts and round-hips and bums as well as the skinny ones with flat chests and slim hips and flat asses; the ones who've had double mastectomies, hysterectomies and/or oophorectomies; and the ones who've gone bald coz of chemotherapy or some other reason.

I'm also for women's sports being open without restriction to all XX female people who now have, recently have had or ever in life have had the health condition that is by far the single most common cause of elevated natural T in women - pregnancy.

Also, you seem to believe that because PCOS usually causes female people to have elevated levels of T, having PCOS is a boon that leads to greater athleticism and better sports performance in most individuals with the condition. I think you are sorely mistaken.

Geez RoJo I don’t know whose side you’re on.

Do you want Semenya and Niyonsaba to compete or not? First you’re saying it’s a travesty Niyonsaba is DSQ from competiting, then DSQ from the Olympics and now you don’t want her to run at all?

Pick a side and quit flip flopping. You either want them to run or not.

DSD athletes have had no choice to have their testosterone advantage. DSD athletes are not the issue. Transgender athletes are the issue. That’s why there are safeguards in place in Elite and Collegiate athletics. At the Elite HS level, there should be safeguards. But lower than that, there should be inclusion at all cases possible.

Males should not be competing against females no matte rhow much lipstick they put on!

you have an agenda

we get it but are on to you

rojo wrote:

I just published my latest column on the transgender/intersex problem facing women's sports.

https://twitter.com/letsrundotcom/status/1440009135458766850

Norm Macdonald once famously said, "I feel that one of the basic requirements of being a sprinter is having legs." If we apply that same logic to the transgender/intersex crisis, then there would be no crisis at all.

“I feel that a basic requirement of being eligible to compete in elite women’s sport is to not have functioning testes.”

That sums up my thoughts perfectly. And I feel that last quote is the perfect way to shut down the advocates of intersex/transgender athletes such as Francine Niyonsaba, Caster Semenya, CeCe Telfer, Andraya Yearwood, etc. as it makes things easy to understand but does so in a way that isn’t mean or judgmental.

Yes, that's what she has. Sorry I should've stated it from beginning just wanted to be private... I think it's so tricky because while she isn't like male-to-female transgender people she also doesn't have XX chromosomes. but I 100% agree that she should be able to compete. every person with CAIS is different and I don't know a ton about it but I researched it more and she told us that hers is complete (apparently there's PAIS where it's even more complicated). I'd be curious to learn more about the advantages on performance because at least from my experience with my close friend with CAIS, she didn't seem to have any. I'd say she's not even tall for a girl (maybe slightly above average), but there were girls on my HS team that were very tall and had very long legs and were super fast and another girl could think that was unfair (especially for sprinting, hurdles). Nothing about her body structure suggested she was at advantage, but again, I'd have to research more. There's more I could say, but I think I'll stop here. But yes, other intersex conditions are more complicated and same with MTF transgender people. As I mentioned, someone in my family is transgender (not MTF, but FTM) so I am understanding with trans people wanting to compete with the gender they identify as. But yeah I can't deny that there are probably biological advantages with MTF trans people even maybe after their testosterone levels drop. I wish there was a solution that wouldn't make them compete with men, but also a way that they weren't completely dominating in girls sports. If I, a biological male, wanted to change genders I don't know if I would want to compete with girls because I think everyone would be coming at me and I'd feel bad if I were to do well. And lastly, I agree - women should decide about these intersex and trans athletes.

Not a shock wrote:

A trans woman is a trans woman. She's not a biological woman.

Robert, you're transphobic. A trans woman is by definition a woman. No ifs, ands, or buts - by definition there is no such thing as a "biological woman". Not only does this have no meaning, this is incredibly offensive to trans individuals who constantly have their gender questioned or qualified.

The nuance you are missing regarding biological sex is a different discussion, but don't drag people's womanhood, or manhood, etc. into it.

How about we just call it the cisfemale division. That way we marginalize a normal woman.

hayward field wrote:

Thoughts on transwomen in sports--from a transwoman--who no longer runs, but once competed as a male:

1. It's complicated. There is no easy solution.

2. There must be a balance between three factors: fairness, inclusiveness, and safety.

3. This balance should change with the age and level of competition. On one end of the spectrum--school children--the emphasis should be on inclusivity-- everyone is allowed to participate. As you approach the elite level, the balance shifts to "Fairness." At this level (medals and money) I feel transwomen should have completed sexual reassignment surgery and their testosterone levels should be within normal range for a women. (Admittedly, high school is gray area.)

4. Standards/policies should vary from sport to sport. What works for one sport, won't work for another. For example, the standards for women's archery, I would imagine would be quite different than those for women's weightlifting.

I'm not a girl, so I can't speak for other girls about how they'd feel about a transgender girl competing, but I do know that some would be OK as long as their testosterone levels are lowered. I agree with everything you said. I think sports are for everyone and trans women should be able to compete with women; they are women. I have a FTM transgender person in my family and I found out this year that a close friend is intersex, so I have thought about these issues... Speaking from experience, my sibling who is transgender has been so happy competing and practicing with boys and not girls. It means a lot and competing with girls would make him miserable. But yes I think sport to sport policies should vary....