BHSXCCOACH wrote:
Ok then, based on your standards, Coburn still has a better resume. You have a short memory. Coburn has a World Championship gold medal.
Olympic silver > WC gold
BHSXCCOACH wrote:
Ok then, based on your standards, Coburn still has a better resume. You have a short memory. Coburn has a World Championship gold medal.
Olympic silver > WC gold
te5n1k wrote:
coburn has clearly been more consistent and has an impressive resume, but all that aside, on paper they are pretty similar. frerichs has the AR (with a spectacular time of 857), an olympic silver and a silver from worlds. emma has three world medals including a gold at worlds, but only an olympic bronze. lets be honest no one will remember how many times she went sub 910 especially if she never goes sub 9 (a goal she is unlikely to get at this point imo).
so looking at their most memorable achievements you could argue frerichs is more impressive already and its trending downhill for emma.
+ 1
It's pretty close with the medals, but the AR puts Frerichs over the top. She just needs one more global medal of any color to make it indisputible.
iklb wrote:
Who is a better 1500m runner, Sifan Hasssn or Jenny Simpson. Jenny has more global medals, but Sifan has the faster time. But in my mind, Sifan is the better 1500m runner.
Just like that, even though Emma has more global medals (including gold), Courtney is clearly the better athlete. She has the American record (which is six second faster than Emma), and she got two global sliver medals, one of them at the Olympics.
Frerichs is clearly the best American steepler ever .
And Please don't bring their head to head records. In this discussion, It's simply irrelevant. In Track and field, we don't judge athletes on how they perform When they face each other; We judge them on how they perform when it matters the most (at global championship ) and by National and Word records they broke during their careers
* * In NBA and NFL, regular season wins don't mean nothing . You get judged on how well you performed during the playoffs.
better comparison might be maybe Houlihan (pre burrito) vs. Simpson for best American 1500m but the Houlihan suspension obviously changes things. Rowbury never had the championship 1500m medals to be in the conversation.
But to the real question does this put Courtneys steeple career ahead of Coburns? No not at this point. Coburn has too much depth of results over a decade to have 3 races from Frerichs (2 ARs and Olympic Silver) overtake her. I think going forward that you have to pick Courtney as a favorite over Coburn if they race but for overall careers not that close yet for me. Courtney can pass her to me by being the dominate US runner over the next olympic cycle. Add another championship medal, win some US championships, and maybe win a couple diamond league races. I would lean to say that peak Courtney > peak Coburn because of the American records but Courtney still hasn't won a major race US title/Diamond League/Worlds/Olympics. In all her best races she's finished second while Coburn who was never the favorite verse the world has pulled out a few victories and a slew of US championships. While I think unlikely at this point I wouldn't be totally surprised if Coburn takes the American record back in the next year or so and then this conversation would be moot. We will see.
I'd love to see a Venn diagram of people citing Coburn's gold and people who cite Centro's gold.
rhimby wrote:
BHSXCCOACH wrote:
Ok then, based on your standards, Coburn still has a better resume. You have a short memory. Coburn has a World Championship gold medal.
Olympic silver > WC gold
WC Gold, WC Silver, Oly Bronze > WC silver, Oly Silver
rhojo wrote:
rhimby wrote:
Olympic silver > WC gold
WC Gold, WC Silver, Oly Bronze > WC silver, Oly Silver
This hurt my brain :/
birdbeard wrote:
iklb wrote:
Who is a better 1500m runner, Sifan Hasssn or Jenny Simpson. Jenny has more global medals, but Sifan has the faster time. But in my mind, Sifan is the better 1500m runner.
Just like that, even though Emma has more global medals (including gold), Courtney is clearly the better athlete. She has the American record (which is six second faster than Emma), and she got two global sliver medals, one of them at the Olympics.
Frerichs is clearly the best American steepler ever .
And Please don't bring their head to head records. In this discussion, It's simply irrelevant. In Track and field, we don't judge athletes on how they perform When they face each other; We judge them on how they perform when it matters the most (at global championship ) and by National and Word records they broke during their careers
* * In NBA and NFL, regular season wins don't mean nothing . You get judged on how well you performed during the playoffs.
lol come on man, that’s a huge false equivalency
For a couple other examples. My old teammate used to say in 1 race Clayton Murphy became a more successful 800m runner than Nick Symmonds.
Would you argue that Athing My isn't our best 800m runner ever. And Ajee Wilson is my favorite 800 runner but I can't say she better than Mu.
Again most accolades for a overall career is a different story.
So in this case I would agree that Frerichs is better than Coburn but not more successful
rhimby wrote:
rhojo wrote:
WC Gold, WC Silver, Oly Bronze > WC silver, Oly Silver
This hurt my brain :/
I'm sorry you simpleton
rhimby wrote:
rhojo wrote:
WC Gold, WC Silver, Oly Bronze > WC silver, Oly Silver
This hurt my brain :/
And is false. WC medals are overrated. Olympics are worth twice as much.
rhojo wrote:
rhimby wrote:
This hurt my brain :/
I'm sorry you simpleton
Don't make fun of me for my tiny brain :0
rhimby wrote:
rhimby wrote:
This hurt my brain :/
And is false. WC medals are overrated. Olympics are worth twice as much.
You want to assign point values? Oly medals worth twice as much?
Coburn 3+2+2 Frerichs 4+2 Coburn still wins
it took a while but it looks like a change of the guard here.
Courtney now needs a dang US Title.
Yes, but I bet Emma Coburn comes back with a vengeance!
Thank you for that one. The same people arguing for Coburn would say that Mu is better than Wilson. What if Frerichs had run 8:47 today? 8:37? 8:27? The arguments about head to head don't change based on how fast Frerichs runs.
westsouthrunner wrote:
ShilohDoesntCare wrote:
Refer back to the title morons. Frerichs is currently the #1 US womens steepler but she IS NOT the best womens US steepler ever. You gain that title through a body of work and that work does not start with a 2-18 record against your main rival.
I sure hope people start thinking like this when they try to insinuate kipchoge or Cheptegei are better runners than Bekele.
Frerichs can just argue she's better then coburn. But coburn has accomplished more as of now
Maybe you’re a young cycling or swimming fan that just heard about running but Kipchoge isn’t exactly a one year wonder.
He won a word title in 2003 and 18 years later, won Olympic gold. That statistic alone is insane. Not to mention, most would consider him the best marathoner 2014-present. I mean, he literally didn’t lose after that 2013 2nd place finish in a world record race (until London last year).
Also has the WR, broke 2 hours (almost twice), and 2 Olympic Golds, an Olympic silver, Olympic bronze. and 8 World Marathon Major wins.
Only including the 5k/10k, Bekele easily takes it, but for total career, Kipchoge has placed Top 5 at a World/Oly Champs or won a WMM almost every year for 18 years. How many athletes in any sport remain that close to the top for 18 years?? You can make arguments for Bekele, but recency bias isn’t applicable here.
Ok, Let's list their achievement
Emma Couburn - Olympic bronze , Worlds gold, and Worlds Silver.
Courtney Frerichs - Worlds Silver, American record, World Silver, and American record (the second time with sub 9).
For me, Courtney Frerichs's achievement is better and she is the best Steepler ever in USA
# Frerichs is the steeple queen
Emma ducked Frerichs today but that doesn’t show up in their head-to-head figures. Says something though.
westsouthrunner wrote:
birdbeard wrote:
lol come on man, that’s a huge false equivalency
Would you argue that Athing My isn't our best 800m runner ever. And Ajee Wilson is my favorite 800 runner but I can't say she better than Mu.
We've never really seen Mu not be great though and her age/career project plays a part in this. Frerichs has run head to head with Coburn for almost a decade. Coburn was unquestionably better that whole time besides one race, Frerich's former AR and now these past 3 weeks.
rhojo wrote:
rhimby wrote:
Olympic silver > WC gold
WC Gold, WC Silver, Oly Bronze > WC silver, Oly Silver
surely an 857 AR is worth something in this equation
runners world wrote:
Ok, Let's list their achievement
Emma Couburn - Olympic bronze , Worlds gold, and Worlds Silver.
Courtney Frerichs - Worlds Silver, American record, World Silver, and American record (the second time with sub 9).
For me, Courtney Frerichs's achievement is better and she is the best Steepler ever in USA
# Frerichs is the steeple queen
If your counting past American records Coburn ran a few of those too