The Magnificent Seven: Bekele, El Guerrouj, Lagat, Komen, Gebrselassie, Ingebrigtsen...Katir?

John Wesley Harding wrote:

coach wrote:

something is wrong if Kipchoge is only 18th

No, nothing is wrong. This is not a subjective list of greatest distance runners. This is merely one simple statistical metric related to PBs at 5 key events on the track.

Yeah I see so many people now trying to Say Kipchoge is the best runner like there weren't any other events he did.

uncle billy wrote:

Cool post. There are also only seven runners who belong to the illustrious sub-3:30, -7:30, -13:00 club:

1. Komen - 1252 (3:29.46) + 1299 (7:20.67) + 1285 (12:39.74) = 3836

2. El Guerrouj - 1302 (3:26.00) + 1283 (7:23.09) + 1246 (12:50.24) = 3831

3. Ingebrigtsen - 1269 (3:28.32) + 1258 (7:27.05) + 1252 (12:48.45) = 3779

4. Lagat - 1297 (3:26.34) + 1245 (7:29.00) + 1233 (12:53.60) = 3775

5. Katir - 1262 (3:28.76) + 1254 (7:27.64) + 1244 (12:50.79) = 3760

6. Choge - 1252 (3:29.47) + 1247 (7:28.76) + 1233 (12:53.66) = 3732

7. Aouita - 1252 (3:29.46) + 1243 (7:29.45) + 1215 (12:58.39) = 3710

Neither list accurately captures the top 7 in history but they’re still fun to look at.

And how many of them were able to do it within 6 weeks a la Katir?

Gardiner's T-shirt wrote:

Bernard Lagat at 2450, I make it? Very solid 27:49.35 and points really boosted by a fast 3:26.34

So:

1. Gebrselassie - 2562

2. Kejelcha - 2520

3. Farah - 2510

4. Bekele - 2506

5. Barega - 2500

6. Hissou - 2451

7. Lagat - 2450

For Lagat, I have 1297 (3:26.34) + 1148 (27:49.35) = 2445. So he his narrowly edged out by Cheptegei [1142 (3:37.36) + 1306 (26:11.00) = 2448)] unless I’ve made an error.

From Google:

https://i.ibb.co/wSMphhD/races.jpg

In my opinion they sould adopt a system like tennis to juge runners.

Some runners sleep for 3 years and get lucky in the year of the Olympics (the case of Lasse Viren in 1976).

John Kerr failed to be eliminated in the first round and ended bronze.

A lot of runners get unlucky or suddenly not peaking at the finals.

*should

Passant wrote:

From Google:

https://i.ibb.co/wSMphhD/races.jpg

In my opinion they sould adopt a system like tennis to juge runners.

Some runners sleep for 3 years and get lucky in the year of the Olympics (the case of Lasse Viren in 1976).

John Kerr failed to be eliminated in the first round and ended bronze.

A lot of runners get unlucky or suddenly not peaking at the finals.

It’s Josh Kerr, and also you’re off your rocker.

westsouthrunner wrote:

John Wesley Harding wrote:

No, nothing is wrong. This is not a subjective list of greatest distance runners. This is merely one simple statistical metric related to PBs at 5 key events on the track.

Yeah I see so many people now trying to Say Kipchoge is the best runner like there weren't any other events he did.

I think he’s in contention for the G.O.A.T. distance runner myself. Just because he might only be the 10th or 25th greatest on the track, doesn’t mean being almost universally regarded as the Marathon G.O.A.T. can’t elevate him into the conversation.

High hopes wrote:

It will never cease to surprise me that Farah only ran 12:53. I understand why, he was incentivised to win medals rather than break records. Even so, it feels like we never saw what he was really capable of over 5000.

Mo was an odd guy. Most guys in his position would want to break European records in the 3,000 and 5,000. He didn't seem to have much interest. It feels like the 1500 was the event he actually time-trialed with any interest. In his non-championship year of 2014, he went after the roads instead of chasing marks.

While his aura in championship races was cool, the circuit is more interesting with the current crop like Cheptegei, Jakob, Barega, McSweyn and so on who take more swings within races to set records and run fast times.

John Wesley Harding wrote:

westsouthrunner wrote:

Yeah I see so many people now trying to Say Kipchoge is the best runner like there weren't any other events he did.

I think he’s in contention for the G.O.A.T. distance runner myself. Just because he might only be the 10th or 25th greatest on the track, doesn’t mean being almost universally regarded as the Marathon G.O.A.T. can’t elevate him into the conversation.

anyone who could have epic battles with El G and Bekele is in the conversation. 2 world champ medals in the 5000 and 2 olympic medals in the 5000. forget times, he wasn't a time trialist-he was a racer. He raced to win.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

High hopes wrote:

It will never cease to surprise me that Farah only ran 12:53. I understand why, he was incentivised to win medals rather than break records. Even so, it feels like we never saw what he was really capable of over 5000.

Mo was an odd guy. Most guys in his position would want to break European records in the 3,000 and 5,000. He didn't seem to have much interest. It feels like the 1500 was the event he actually time-trialed with any interest. In his non-championship year of 2014, he went after the roads instead of chasing marks.

While his aura in championship races was cool, the circuit is more interesting with the current crop like Cheptegei, Jakob, Barega, McSweyn and so on who take more swings within races to set records and run fast times.

Yeah, the 5k is a lot more interesting now. I think for Mo, a lot of it came down to money. No one is paying him to take a shot at European records, and let's face it, he wasn't ever going to get a WR that would trigger a contract bonus. He would have got really good appearance fees for his HMs, especially in the UK. It wouldn't surprise me if he had a far more financially lucrative career than any other distance runner in history. Still, he's got his 2 mile WB and one hour WR...

Wise Old Man wrote:

rhimby wrote:

Nope. Bekele comes out on top, with his 10k (1295 points) and his marathon (13:15 points) which is 2610 in total. I don't think any distance runner is over that.

If you credit EK with his 1:59, then he’s at 2640.

So Kipchoge=🐐

Why would you credit him with 1:59? Bekele could have easily run 1:59 under those conditions. In fact, I think Kipchoge's actual WR is more impressive than his 1:59.

Both Mo and Ej G were far quicker in the 5km than their PRs indicated.

And if Bekele had Kipchoge's singular focus he would be first sub-2 in a real race, but there is no point playing the what-if game in this instance.

Star wrote:

Said Aouita held both the 1500 and 5000 world records.

None of those greatest 7 did that.

Said Aouita is the most influential of all. He succeeded to rise in the hard times.

Just figure that Ethiopian/Kenyan started to domine the Worldwide Cross country at the beginning of 80s.

High hopes wrote:

I think for Mo, a lot of it came down to money. No one is paying him to take a shot at European records, and let's face it, he wasn't ever going to get a WR that would trigger a contract bonus. He would have got really good appearance fees for his HMs, especially in the UK. It wouldn't surprise me if he had a far more financially lucrative career than any other distance runner in history. Still, he's got his 2 mile WB and one hour WR...

Yes, and him putting in a London/Gateshead DL race vs. an always-crappy field feels like a money grab as well. I mean can't argue with him, maybe I'd think that way in his position as well. But it was less good for the sport with stagnant racing/fewer big-name matchups on the circuit, and I think it's why they tried to eliminate the 5K from the DL in part. Guys were doing 12 mins + of queuing up instead of actually racing, which was boring. Now the 3K-5K is one of the more exciting events to watch.

coach wrote:

John Wesley Harding wrote:

I think he’s in contention for the G.O.A.T. distance runner myself. Just because he might only be the 10th or 25th greatest on the track, doesn’t mean being almost universally regarded as the Marathon G.O.A.T. can’t elevate him into the conversation.

anyone who could have epic battles with El G and Bekele is in the conversation. 2 world champ medals in the 5000 and 2 olympic medals in the 5000. forget times, he wasn't a time trialist-he was a racer. He raced to win.

I'm not saying he isn't the best marathoner ever because he is and that's where his extraordinary aura ends.

He is slightly younger than bekele and Farah yet they both have like 9-10 GOLD track titles and Bekele has 11 World xc titles to Kipchoge's 4

THE BEST ALL AROUND. Is Bekele. Kipchoge simply isn't in the conversation which is ok. The closest person is Haile Bekele was just as dominant in the 10,000m as kipchoge is in the marathon and he was even more dominant in Xc which is crazy but true.

If we did a point system that accounted for for medals AND times those numbers would not lie.

Olympic/world gold =500pts

Silver = 400pts

Bronze = 300pts

World XC/major Marathon 200pts

Bekele:

Gold - 4000pts

Silver - 400pts

Bronze - 300pts

Xc- 2200pts

Marathon - 200pts

7100 pts

Not including world indoor gold

Farah:

Gold 5000pts

Silver 800pts

Marathon maybe 200. Is Chicago a major?

5800pts or 6000pts

Gold - 1500

Silver - 800

Bronze - 300

Marathon - 1400pts

4000pts

No matter how you stack it. If you stack it fairly bekele is the best distance runner

^ that was just giving some sort of numerical value to medals. The times numbers can be taken from earlier in this thread

I don’t think your numerical system is up to snuff, frankly. You can’t compare achievements at the Marathon and 5k 1:1.

One tiny specific (irrelevant) correction is that Kipchoge’s won 8 WMMs, so that’s 1600 points.

But for instance, I believe REPEATING as Olympic Marathon champ is worth a heck of a lot more from a historical standpoint than Barega’s 10k win. Even if Barega or Cheptegei had won double 5k/10k gold, how many times has that been done? Zatopek, Kuts, Virén, Yifter, Bekele, Farah—it’s a less noteworthy achievement, in my view, but would yield more points by your system.

Also, the cutesy “all-around” title is not the same for me as “Greatest distance runner in history.” Someone could win 4 straight Olympic marathons at 23/27/31/35, win 19 career WMMs, set the true WR back to 1:59 and have 8 of the top ten fastest performances all time, and they could win the title of “Greatest distance runner in history” without ever racing on the track or XC.

I do appreciate the thought and effort you put in though.

Straw man argument...if you sub in Bekele's 2:01:41 marathon he is the GOAT over Kipchoge. You are adequately put in your place now. Well it gets worse...his 5,000 indoor WR is also above 1,300.

Bekele equals 1,315 for his marathon and 1,303 for his indoor 5,000 WR. So Bekele is 2,618 in total. Yikes, Kipchoge is only 2,575, that is 41 points behind Bekele. Cheptegei is 2,608. So Bekele is the GOAT and Cheptegei is 2nd. Kipchoge, actually settles for third amongst these three.

Dumb Old Moron? wrote:

Straw man argument...if you sub in Bekele's 2:01:41 marathon he is the GOAT over Kipchoge. You are adequately put in your place now. Well it gets worse...his 5,000 indoor WR is also above 1,300.

Bekele equals 1,315 for his marathon and 1,303 for his indoor 5,000 WR. So Bekele is 2,618 in total. Yikes, Kipchoge is only 2,575, that is 41 points behind Bekele. Cheptegei is 2,608. So Bekele is the GOAT and Cheptegei is 2nd. Kipchoge, actually settles for third amongst these three.

Yep. Bekele is undeniably the best.