Why couldn’t Jerry figure out Kate Grace and the 800?

holterskolter2 wrote:

Prior to Jerry, Wartenburg coached her for a few years. He couldn't figure it out either, apparently. So not just Jerry. Prior to that, she was in college.

A small correction. Prior to Wartenburg, she worked with two other coaches after college. Right after graduating in 2011, she joined NJ/NY Track Club to work with Gags. In early 2014, she left Gags and moved to Bend to work with Lauren Fleshman and Bob Lesko. She left Bend in mid-2015 to work with Wartenburg at Norcal.

She did have underrated 1500 success with Jerry, as pointed out by another poster. I don't think it's crazy to try to have her move up to 1500 because she seemed to stagnate at 1:59 and not have the top end speed needed for the 800.

Something to consider is that maybe Jerry's strength training is now paying off for her. If she is hammering speed with low mileage, I would expect her to not replicate these performances next year because she probably won't do the same strength phase as she did with Jerry.

Clayton Murphy is a good male counterpart to her, albeit with much greater success beforehand.

Fantastic 800m specialist that seemed to perhaps lack the top end speed so Alberto hammered him into the ground to make him a miler. He looked flat for years, goes back to his old college speed-based coach and takes a while rediscover those gears and pop. He looked flat up til the beginning of this year. Now he's got the pop back, and I think the strength built up over those 'wasted' years will also pay off now

scrambled eggs wrote:

Obviously 5k-10k Jerry is one of the best coaches in the world. He’s even had some superb 1500 runners. But why did Kate have poor results for 5 years. Then after 6 months with a new coach runs a 1.5 second PR for a diamond league win. Then comes back several days later and PRs again.

Does Bowerman just have a system and if you don’t fit into that style of training your SOL?

My SOL is what?

Too busy cooking up burritos for Shelbo.

After the Shelby debacle I am no longer convinced that Jerry is that knowledgable as a coach. Never heard of nandrolone, etc.

you can't possibly try to blame Semenya and other runners with high testosterone for Kate Grace's 5 years of poor results lol.

Here are a couple of Jerry workout examples to give you an idea of how they are 3k-10k workouts:

Alan Webb, 3/18/2013:

4 Mile Tempo-19:05 (4:40, 4:45, 4:45, 4:45); 6:00 recovery; 1600m-4:25; 3:00 recovery; 2 x 800-2:13/2:07 (1:15 recovery)

Only the 2nd 800m was close to his best 5000m pace. Maybe those two were date 5000m pace. So, they do a lot of volume, often 6-8 miles of intervals, at paces slower than 5000m pace.

The following is a schedule for the women of Karissa Schweizer posted by nosam:

T 10x200 hills (jog down recovery), 4 x 200/100 jog/200/200 jog

T 6 x mile (90)

S 1h45 long run

T 10x200/100 jog

T 4 mile/1 mile/2 mile/1 mile (90)

S 1h45 long run

T 6x200/4x300 hills (jog down recovery), 7x300/100 jog

T 4 mile/3 mile/1 mile (90)

S 1h45 long run

T 10x300/100 jog, (5), 2 x 600/400/200 (2 between reps, 5 between sets)

T 1mile/ 3 mile/1 mile/3 mile/1 mile (90)

S 1h50 long run

T 12x200/100 jog, (5), 5x400 (2)

T 4 x mile / 4x1200 (90 between reps, 5 between sets)

S 2hr long run

T 10x300/100 jog, (5), 8x200 (90)

F 4miles, (8), 10x400 (90)

S 2hr long run

T 3 x 400/100 jog/300/100 jog/200 8x300 (90)

F easy run

S easy run

T 4x150/8x200 (90)

F 10x300/100 jog, (5), 10x150 (90)

S 1h50 long run

T 4 x mile (90), (8), 3 x 800/2x400 (2, 1, 4)

F 10x200/100 jog, (8), 600/4x200/600 (4, 90, 4)

S 2h long run

T 2 x 1k/800/600/400 (4)

F 1 mile/2 mile/800/400/2k/800/1 mile/1 mile/1200 (90)

S 1h50 long run

T 2x2mile (90), (10) /800/2x400/600/300 (4)

S UW Invitational

S 2hr long run

T 800/8x400 (2)

F 8 x mile (90)

S 1h30 long run

T 3x400 (2), (4), 800, (4), 3x200 (1)

F USA Indoors

S USA Indoors

S 1h45 long run

T 4 mile (5) /3 x mile (90)

F 2 x 1200/800/400 (4)

S 1h30 long run

T 3x400 (2), (4), 800, (4), 3x200 (1)

F BU Last Chance

S 2hr long run

T 5mile, (8), 10x200/100 jog

F 1 mile/2 mile/1 mile/2 mile/1 mile/2 mile/1 mile (90)

S 2hr long run

T 7x300/100 jog, (8), 500/400/300/200 (3)

T 3 mile (8)/4 x mile (3)

S 2hr long run

T 5x400/100 jog, 5x300/100 jog, 5x200/100jog (5)

F 2x4 miles (4)

S 2hr long run

T 10 x 200/100 jog/200/200 jog

F 3 mile/1 mile/ 3mile/ 1mile (3)

S 2hr long run

T 2x200, 2x400, 200 hills + track

F 2x4mile (4)

S 2hr long run

T 4 x 4/3/2, 1st & 3rd 100 jog, 2nd & 4th (3)

F 1mile, 4miles, 1mile (3)

S 2hr long run

T 4x200/100 jog, (5), 600, (4), 4x200 (2)

F mile, 1200, 800, 400, mile (4)

S 2hr long run

T 3 x 5x300/100 jog (4)

F 2x4 miles (4)

S 2hr long run

T 4x200/100 jog, (5), 2x300 (4), 4x150 (2), 2x300 (4)

F 3 x (3x400 (1), (3) / 1200) (4)

S 2hr long run

T 10 x 200/100 jog/200/200 jog

F 4x2 miles (3)

S 2hr long run

T 4x200/100 jog, (4), 2x400 (1), (5), 2x300 (1), (5) 4x200/100 jog

F 7x800m (2)

S 2hr long run

T easy run

F easy run

S 1h45 hard long run

T 6x150

F 1mile/1mile/2mile/1mile/1mile/2mile (90)

S 1h50 long run

T 8x200/100 jog, (8), 2 x 600 (4) /3x200 (2), (6)

F 3 x 800/2x400 (2), (3)

S 2h long run

T 5 x mile (90), (8), 600/500/400/300/200 (3)

F 4x200/100 jog, 200/300/150/300/200 (3)

S 1h50 long run

T 1 mile / 2 mile / 1 mile (90), (8), 3x(1k, 100 jog, 200) (3)

F 8x200 (100 jog) 7x200 (2)

S 1h50 long run

T 12x400m (90)

F 3x400 (1), (4), 1k, (5), 2x200 (2)

S easy run

T BTC Meet I

F 4 x mile (90), (5), 4x800 (2)

S 1h30 long run

T 3x400 (1), (4), 1k, (5), 3x200 (2)

F BTC Meet II

S easy run

T 4x200/100 jog 3x(400/300/200) (2), (5)

F 5 x mile (90), 4x150

S easy run

T BTC Meet III

F 4mile, (8), 10x300/100 jog

S 1h35 long run

T 3x400m (1), (4), 1200m, (5), 4x200m (1)

F BTC Meet IV

S 1h25 long run

T 3x400m (1), (3), 4x300/100 jog, (5) 4x200m (1)

F BTC Meet V

He says the men would do a lot of this between 4:30 and 4:50 pace.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Tough Cookie wrote:

That's correct.

Jerry's strength is not the 800. Only 1500 and up.

That's why you don't see any other top women 800 runners in his group.

Why would it be difficult for a distance coach to develop an 800 runner? Specific workouts are available online and he can get advice from other coaches if he needed to. Schumacher, himself, ran a 3:39 1500. Does the 700m difference confuse him?

It's not as simple as that!

You underestimate the art and science of developing great 800m runners. Being that Schumacher was never an 800m runner, as a start, he does not have a physical and mental feel for the event. Also, it helps to have 800m specific training partners.

Hodgkinson

surely_e wrote:

Kate is old, she will be 33 soon, I feel her pain, getting older you just lose energy and muscle mass. Also, she is white. I don't see white girls being competitive in the 800 again.

Roisin Willis, Michaela Meyer, Alison Ince, Hodgkinson, actual Rio XX gold medalist Melissa Bishop, etc etc.. Also, there are plenty of white males 800m at the top, why not women (or "girls" as you say). Why bring race into this, is everything racial nowadays in your ignorant world, or just another bog troll?

Fayded wrote:

After the Shelby debacle I am no longer convinced that Jerry is that knowledgable as a coach. Never heard of nandrolone, etc.

If you actually believe this, I have some land in Florida I want to sell you.

va coach wrote:

Fayded wrote:

After the Shelby debacle I am no longer convinced that Jerry is that knowledgable as a coach. Never heard of nandrolone, etc.

If you actually believe this, I have some land in Florida I want to sell you.

Land in Florida? OK.

Any context for this schedule?

Are these all consecutive weeks?

When was this?

A bit of a wrench in the "Schumacher's training doesn't work for the 800" argument would be GDS. Best she managed with the Glasgow/Andy Young group was a 2:00.9 in a spacious, time trial style race where Reekie ran 1:57 and Muir 1:58. But with BTC she runs 1:58 outkicking Grace, Raevyn Rogers, Sutherland, Price and Akins in the final 100 at the Portland Track Festival. That's a decent handful of solid 800 runners beaten by a traditionally 1500-5000 woman.

It's because he's never heard of Nandrolone.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

If someone is on the strength side of 800 like Grace is, training for the 800 and 1500m are the same thing. .

This is not wrong, but the problem is Jerry trains everybody for the 5k-10k.

Is “gutted” the new buzz word here?

scrambled eggs wrote:

But why did Kate have poor results for 5 years.

Just a small correction to your post. She was with them for a little over 3 years. She joined at the end of october 2017

Tastes Like Chicken wrote:

holterskolter2 wrote:

Prior to Jerry, Wartenburg coached her for a few years. He couldn't figure it out either, apparently. So not just Jerry. Prior to that, she was in college.

A small correction. Prior to Wartenburg, she worked with two other coaches after college. Right after graduating in 2011, she joined NJ/NY Track Club to work with Gags. In early 2014, she left Gags and moved to Bend to work with Lauren Fleshman and Bob Lesko. She left Bend in mid-2015 to work with Wartenburg at Norcal.

Good point. Lends even more credence to the point of "maybe it isn't the coaching that is different." Something about the athlete herself seems to be fundamentally different to run multiple PRs in the 800 at age 31, and have such a consistent seaskn.