Keep the vulgarity to yourself lol. Cole ran a 3:50 indoors and has more speed than Jackob..who btw gets out kicked constantly.
Keep the vulgarity to yourself lol. Cole ran a 3:50 indoors and has more speed than Jackob..who btw gets out kicked constantly.
i have a stopwatch too wrote:
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
So lets apply some simply logic and process here (based on the original question which was Hocker vs Jakob).
4 x 400m relay - what does each guy split? For me, I see Jakob being a 49.2-49.5 guy. Hocker I think is a 48.2-48.5 guy - seeing him run 25.0 at the end of 7.46 3000m and the way he muscled his way to it says to me he has the kind of power to run a low 48 second 400m in a relay. Hey - either way both guys times aren't earth shattering, but....
Let's make up a hypothetical race, Cole vs Jakob and nobody can run faster than 90 seconds a lap for the first 1200m - who wins? I see no evidence to suggest Hocker doesn't. Same race, 75 seconds a lap? - still Hocker. I mean this dude already is a 3min50 miler which is only a few seconds behind Jakob - I would suggest that even at 60s a lap I would back Hocker to run faster in the last 300m than Jakob.
Now of course this is all theoretical. Massive gap in experience right now between the two so sure it would be tough. But my point is, if things fell into place with the speed of the race being dramatically slow in the first 1100m (which in pro championship races does can happen), it's not beyond realm of possibility that Hocker has the speed and the strength to rollover Jakob in the right circumstances.
Sorry, I'm struggling to follow your logic here...
"I see no evidence to suggest Hocker doesn't" - I also see no evidence to suggest Jakob doesn't.
Also, these hypothetical races you make up aren't going to "fall into place", because running is a sport, not a lottery. Jakob will never let that happen, because he is good enough to not let that happen. He will make a race too fast for Hocker and win.
Great finish by Jakob in London - I get him at about 25.8 in the final 200 still almost a second slower (8 tenths) than Hocker in the NCAA's. What I saw in that performance - no real change of gears just a slow build up to his max and then maintaining of an impressive stride length. Completely different to what I have seen from Cole Hocker.
Congrats for pointing out the latter - obviously these are just hypothetical races I even stated that - I even stated in an earlier post that it's all hypothetical at best because it's highly unlikely that Kakob would ever let that happen given he IS a better runner. You must have missed that in your angry state.
So just to be clear - in your mind there is not any race/scenario conceivable where a 3.50 miler that can run 25 flat at the end of a strong 3000m, could ever beat a 3min47 miler. It's just impossible. Never happened before in the history of the sport over any distance that a runner who, while not as good in 95% of race situations, has potentially a slightly superior weapon at his disposal and might fortunately fall into a race where they could utilize it? Never.
Okay. You have a good evening.
Salvitore Stitchmo wrote:
*Jakob*
Keep the vulgarity to yourself lol. Cole ran a 3:50 indoors and has more speed than Jackob..who btw gets out kicked constantly.
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The only one who had out kicked Jakob in the 1500m the last year is Timothy who has out kicked every one else as well for years,
But ask Centro, Engels, McSweyn, Wightman, Lewandowski and more how it has been to finish with Jakob lately!
obviously jakob is better at all distances right now, but it will be interesting to see where jakob goes from here. he probably has more experience and professional training under his belt at 20 year old than most pros have in their mid to late 20s...is it possible he keeps improving or has he reached his physical limits already?
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As stated in other threads it is very unlikely that Jakob -barring injury and illness - will peak any time soon.
So Hocker is chasing a moving target.
Jakob´s performances are mainly based on his aerobic capacity and he can add more layers to his aerobic foundation year after year for a long time if he continues his mainly aerobic training.
Just ask the likes of Gebrselassie, Bekele, Kipchoke, Farah and Lagat who all improved their maraton times in their thirties. This is only possible if they continue to improve aerobically since the marathon performance is almost 100% determined by the aerobic capacity.
I'd expect Jakob to win comfortably, but in a big championship race he struggles to handle the pressure if he's not leading from the front. So Cole has a chance if Jakob gets boxed in, at which point they'll be another big DQ decision.
Being outkicked in the 1500m and the 5000m is almost the same thing. Also it is a real error claiming "let the 5000m for the end of carrer".
We have seen ton of elite runners that when they drop in the 1500m, they drop in the 5000m as well and vise versa.
For me concerning kickers;
Top kickers
Muktar Edris
Kiplimo
Barega is slightly better kicker than the Norwegian Jakob. But it is really his problem now this issue.
We will see what will happens in the next months.
Well, it isn't happening any time soon. Jakob can run sub-3:30 for fun. Hocker doesn't even have an OQT. You're comparing a world class talent to a solid US national level talent
g3wh wrote:
fhbcddg wrote:
Jakob is currently probably about 5 seconds quicker over 1500m
But how many times has Hocker been in sub 3:30 1500 m races?
How many times has Centro Jr run under 3:30? Yet he has a gold medal nonetheless.
The point about Hocker’s ability to close is legitimate for championship style racing which is rarely run near WR pace.
Game has changed with the shoes. 3:30 is the new 3:33. Anyone hoping to win a medal with a 3:37 is going to need luck regardless of closing speed
CoachB wrote:
g3wh wrote:
But how many times has Hocker been in sub 3:30 1500 m races?
How many times has Centro Jr run under 3:30? Yet he has a gold medal nonetheless.
The point about Hocker’s ability to close is legitimate for championship style racing which is rarely run near WR pace.
yeah but in the 1500 with Tim and jakob, they're most likely going to take it out fast fast, which would hurt Hocker.
The real question is: in a 2016-style kickers race, could Hobbs Kessler beat everyone in the world?
I'm only half way kidding. Cole barely kicks down his own teammate, I don't think he is running away from the big boys, who kick from 600 out in a 1500m. I also don't think there's any reason to believe that Cole could keep it together off a non-controlled/suicidal pace, like the last time Jacob raced Tim. Maybe he can, but there's no reason to think so at this point in time.
objectiveobserver wrote:
obviously jakob is better at all distances right now, but it will be interesting to see where jakob goes from here. he probably has more experience and professional training under his belt at 20 year old than most pros have in their mid to late 20s...is it possible he keeps improving or has he reached his physical limits already?
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As stated in other threads it is very unlikely that Jakob -barring injury and illness - will peak any time soon.
So Hocker is chasing a moving target.
Jakob´s performances are mainly based on his aerobic capacity and he can add more layers to his aerobic foundation year after year for a long time if he continues his mainly aerobic training.
Just ask the likes of Gebrselassie, Bekele, Kipchoke, Farah and Lagat who all improved their maraton times in their thirties. This is only possible if they continue to improve aerobically since the marathon performance is almost 100% determined by the aerobic capacity.
who is talking about marathons? how many improved their 1500 times in their 30s?
Ingebrigtsen is like Kechelja (Heights 1.82m and 1.86m)
Cheptegei is like Bekele (1.67m and 1.65m resp.)
There are some runners that get physically mature at young age. But the time and performance play another role.
Just thought we would revisit this after Hocker ripped off a 25.2/3 last 200m to beat the reigning Oly champ.
Hell I even thought that this race might be one too many for him - I was dead wrong on that. One thing I am not wrong about is that Hocker can beat Jakob in this type of race because Jakob simply does not have that finishing power.
If anyone can find a Jakob 1500m in the 3.35/6 range where he closes out in under 25.5 then let's see it. Otherwise right now, Hocker can beat him in a classic championship split race. Period.
But yea, everyone "hates" him.
Lol
` wrote:
Talk to me when Hocker runs 3:28 (or races actual pros). The disrespect is insane.
Yakob is smarter than Cocker. Yakob never runs as fast as Hocker does in races because it simply doesnt make sense for him to ever reach that speed in a middle distance event. If youre reaching that speed in a 1500m, thats far from optimal, and theres a lot more risk involved.
I dont care at all what someone can split for a 200m inside of a 1500m, because unlike sprinting events, in middle distance events no one is EVER trying to reach max speed.
Once you realize that, it becomes clear that running a 12s final 100m in a 1500 is less of an achievement and more of a sign of a poor pacing strategy. Even if you win with a finish like that, you could have won in a safer way. If Hocker matures as a competitor he will realize this and ditch the flashy finishes for safer, more evenpaced efforts.
Its nice when someone has some wisdom to break up the extreme hyping of everyone and anyone with an american passport.