High Mileage Only Works at Under 7 Minute Pace

At the end of the game what is make you go faster in a quicker and more precise way are quality workout, supported by a great aerobic base and by a good amount of easy and moderate miles per week . 80%-20% as just a guideline how much easy and moderate and how much quality workouts The speed of your easy pace(1'30"/km or slower than your 10k pace) and moderate pace (1'/km slower than your 10 k pace) is influenced of course by your ENGINE, by your Vo2 max , and your Lactic Threshold.

If you have a runner A that has 30' in 10k , well sure this is someone that can make all of his easy and moderate runs below 7'/miles or 4'20"/km. But I m sure that someday he will need an easy recovery run at a slower pace so it can be 5'/km .

Now take a runner B with a 37'30 in 10k (3'45/km) His moderate pace is about 4'45/km. And his easy pace is slower than 5'15/km. If you make this runner go at 7'/miles or 4'20/km . Thats too fast for him this pace is very very near to his marathon pace so no way this can be a pace to build mileage during the weeks. So in the end , to go fast you need as much miles per week as your body can handle at the RIGHT EASY and MODERATE pace , than on top of this QUALITY workout will make you stress directly those speed you want to improve ,1500 pace- Vo2max- Lactic Threshold- Marathon pace.

I think this is only applicable to the more talented runners.

I run 4 times a week and do 30-40 miles per week. 5k is mediocre, like 19 minutes.

I actually do improve when I do my runs at 7 pace (in addition to a tempo at 6 pace), but I usually have to do my long run at 8 pace otherwise I'll completely burn out.

Right now running 4 times a week is more than enough. If I had to run 5 or 6 times a week or run 60 miles then I would lose all interest in the sport. I don't know how you people manage to run so much.

toozy wrote:

I don’t understand how elite runners do 8 minute miles. It’s basically a lumbering jog.

Not when you are biomechanical sound.

So basically you're trying to say that quality, faster miles are better than quantity, slower miles. Congratulations: You've stumbled onto something that hundreds of thousands of runners before you discovered works for them! I have no problem if people want to run their easy days fast, but at some point if you're doing a lot of miles that way you end up leaving your racing in the training. Physical adaptations take place in 'recovery', that is on those 'easy' days when you're elevating the HR just enough to flush out lactate 'residue' from the harder efforts days prior while not producing more. So yes, running easy days at a quality pace is fine as long as you're maybe taking a day off every week, ten days, two weeks or so and really watching your diet (proper protein and mineral amounts is critical in helping recovery/adaptation). It's in recovery you'll get stronger. Ask any physiologists/sport based nutritionists who know their stuff and they'll confirm that.

I have been coaching a local high schooler on this idea of quality over quantity, but I've limited how much he does each week as he's only had a couple of 'broken' years of running (would always stop running for several weeks between seasons) He's responded well, but I include one day off each week to make sure he fully recovers. And you are actually correct in the mechanics thing. Running slow trains you to run slow UNLESS you're doing drills, plyometrics and stuff like that to work on biomechanics and power/efficiency generation abilities. So I agree up to a point, but also caution that a lot of faster 'easy' miles is just a lot of faster 'easy' miles that you still have to recover from. Best of luck in your training.

An old but washed up runner...

Why do LRC posters take the bait from Sham 69 every single time? Is he Island/Sand Dunes from a few years ago under a new name?

Interesting debate here because I’ve ran with amazing runners who averaged 6:40-7:15 on easy days. 7:20-30 on shake outs and they hardly go 8 minute pace. I’m talking about 14:48 5000m runners and one who is a sub 4 1500m collegiate athlete.

I increased my mileage this quarantine season and when I don’t look down on my watch it feels easy to run 7 minute pace. I would really have to force myself to jog anything slower than 7:30 unless I’m running hills. This morning I ran 12 miles @ 6:48 pace and my heart rate didn’t go past 157.

Sham I love you but no. You can run higher mileage by running a slower pace, which keeps your HR in the 135-155 zone for longer without fatiguing you.

You build aerobic strength much more efficiently in the heart rate zone.

You improve your running mechanics during tempo, speed work, and strides. I agree that easy pace should usually be at sub 8:00 pace, but I know my 6:00-7:00 pace mechanics are very different than my 4:30 pace mechanics.

If you’re a 4:30 mile runner trying to hit 6:30 pace for 10 miles a day all you’ll do is fatigue yourself and have innefficient workouts.

SanDiegorunner wrote:This morning I ran 12 miles @ 6:48 pace and my heart rate didn’t go past 157.

Yes but the thing is you get the same adaptions from doing that run at 140-145 bpm and you could have run 16 or 17 miles instead. Then still recover quicker and do MORE the same day or next day.

Why don’t people understand this.

How many examples of pro's running 8 or 9 minute miles on easy days do you need to see before you can accept that running at 8 minute mile pace is still beneficial?

British Guy wrote:

How many examples of pro's running 8 or 9 minute miles on easy days do you need to see before you can accept that running at 8 minute mile pace is still beneficial?

None. I am agreeing with you.

taking advice from wesfly and tas, funky strategy

British Guy wrote:

How many examples of pro's running 8 or 9 minute miles on easy days do you need to see before you can accept that running at 8 minute mile pace is still beneficial?

TL:DR- pros are freaks, base your training around demonstrated race performances, prioritize even pacing in training and racing, a rest day is the best easy pace.

The majority of pro runners ...

a) Have natural VO 2 maxes at or above 75, which means they could do nothing but play ultimate frisbee 4 times a week and still break 15 mins for 5k

b) Microdose EPO and testosterone, letting them run sub 4 miles as long as they put in 30 weekly miles at any pace and an occasional interval session.

c) Possess borderline homicidal competitive instincts that compel them to exceptional performances in race settings

d) a and c

e) a, b, and c

In my opinion, d and e are the only correct answers in 2021 and probably have been the only correct answers since at least the time of reindeer milk.

Therefore , what pro runners do is irrelevant to " average" non juiced runners with natural vo2 ranges in the 55 to 70 range.

So ... let's take a 19 year old sophomore xc runner who ran a 24:57 8k as a college freshman. Call him Ajax. Ajax has a goal of running 24:30 this year. To do that, he needs to average 4:54 for 5 miles. Let's round that down to 4:50 a mile to convert track/road pace to xc pace.

A runner who has already demonstrated 25

flat xc 8k pace has an approx LT pace of 5:15 to 5:20 per mile. Theoretical marathon race pace would be around 5:30/ mile. With that in mind anything above 6:30 per mile is safely in the easy or endurance zone. Strict recovery pace would be even slower. So called steady state would be between 6:00 and 6:30.

For Ajax, whether he runs the bulk of his 25-40 miles of weekly "easy"runs at 6:30 per mile or 7:30 per mile makes no difference. Both paces are easy enough to avoid overstressing his body and both are fast enough to adequately stimulate his heart and lungs effectively.

Beyond his easy runs , What Ajax really needs

to take his time down are regular (read weekly to at most every other week) doses of:

1) 600-2000 meter intervals at 4:40 -5:00

per mile pacee with equal or less than equal rest for .a cumulative session total of .75 to 1.25 times upcoming race distance.

2) 3-6 mile "tempo" runs with the tempo section varying from LT pace plus 5 secs down to 8k race pace plus 5 secs. For Ajax that would mean an early season long tempo looking like 2 mile wu smooth straight into 5 miles at 5:25 pace ending with 3 miles cd easy. Later in the season , Ajax might do something like 3 miles warm up smooth straight into 3 miles at 5:00/mile ending with 2 miles cd easy. Both would be quite manageable for Ajax if paced correctly and run in good weather on flat smooth roads.

3) Long (12-17 mile) runs with 4-8 miles at marathon pace to marathon pace plus 10secs.

Yes, some long runs can and should be done entirely at endurance or steady state pace. But competitive runners will also benefit from selectively adding faster segments into long runs. Discretion should be used to keep runs a training effort rather than a long distance race effort.

What Ajax does not need is a signifcant amount of running in the twilight zone pace between marathon pace and endurance zone.

For Ajax that means, staying out of the 5:40 to 6:00/ mile pace. This may sound counterintuitive as this pace would seem to be a comfortably hard pace that offers the best of both worlds. However, in my experience, runners who let too much of their easy or long runs creep into this twilight zone territory fail to adequately recover for their more important tempos and interval sessions.

For example a 60 minute ten mile run at 6:00 pace for Ajax right at the edge of twilight zone is a perfectly reasonable midweek steady state run. However, as a coach, I'd rather see Ajax run this run steadily right at 6:00/mile rather than push the last 5 miles at 5:45 pace. Running those last miles at 5:45 won't increase the training benefit of that run and it doesn't do anything to stimulate an 8k xc race at sub 5 pace.

Pushing easy runs into twilight zone pace also tricks developing runners into thinking that those marginal paces are an honest pace. Then, when these runners get stressed during a race, they tend to collapse back into their twilight zone rhythm which is disastrous for their race performances.

The goal for any long distance runner should be improving their ability to run under control at a realistic race pace. There are many routes to achieving this goal but my 5 basic tenets are

1) Do the bulk of your easy/steady state runs at least 1 min/ mile slower than your 8k pace. For hs runners call it 80 secs slower than your 5k pace. If you're running faster than that for the majority of your runs you're just learning how to race slowly on a daily basis.

2) Learn to run steadily at race pace through medium to long intervals with equal or less than equal rest periods. Long rests between intervals lead to unrealistic and uneven paces. In turn, struggling through sessions at anaerobic paces also overstresses your muscles and leads to delayed recovery.

3) Run your tempos at a very even pace.

Figuring out even pacing is is how you learn to run, not race or sprint, at a fast pace. I can't say it any better than that.

4) Make the most of your long runs.

You don't have to run long every week. You don't and shouldn't run all of your long efforts hard. You don't have to include a hard part on all of your long runs. But you should do a long run every once in a while, and on some of those long runs you should run hard for a moderately long period of time.

5. Take a rest day on a regular planned basis. Rest days allow your body to make physical changes in response to training stimulus.

I recommend 1 rest day of no running with nothing more than moderate stretching and body weight strength exercises once a week.

Some like to push this out to a rest day every 10 days or every two weeks. If you have a die hard running streak, evaluate if your race performance or your running streak is more important to you. If you insist on your streak, keep your run on your "off" day to the absolute minimum and leave your watch at home or at least don't look at it while you're running.

TL:DR- plan your race, simulate your race in training, take a rest day, prioritize even pacing in training and races.

This is true if you want to be running high mileage in excess of 1440 miles a week. If you don't run under 7min/mile, it just doesn't work.

Something that irked me about what you said amongst other things is your take on weightlifting.

It depends heavily on what you do. What most people do for weightlifting involving squats, bench press, and other static lifts actually have a negative effect on coordination and don’t necessarily help power as most lifting is done very slowly. Maybe if you are talking about Olympic lifts and more explosive type movements I might agree but they have less of a place with distance runners.

As far as the running is concerned I am more in line with HRE’s philosophy here. I raise volume first with my athletes and then lower the pace. It works every time and helps prevent injuries doing it this way.

In terms of volume it depends on the distance of the race also and the type of athlete you are training. I have had very few 1500 runners for example that I would think to peak over 100 MPW.

Sham 69 wrote:

The best guy on our team (15:30 5k) does not go slower than 6:30, usually low 6s. Reading this is fascinating.

If he can barely break 5min per mile for 3.1 miles, how is low 6s easy for him? He can talk in full sentences on a 8 mile run at 6min/mile? If you can't have a conversation while running at the pace for a full hour, it isn't easy pace. Sure you can call it easy, but it ain't. There are guys who do 6min pace on easy runs, but their 5ks are well under 14 min. No way 6 min pace is easy for a 15:30 guy.

That is a big misunderstanding that if the weight is moving slowly, the muscle fibers are also firing slowly. If the weight is heavy enough, you teach your brain to generate maximum firing rate of the motor units, which is the most important to generate a big amount of muscle power in a short time. It's true that you need then to learn how to apply that skill to running, but that's supposedly already covered by running training.

Powerlifters are about as good in sprints as olympic weightlifters, throwers and other explosive sports specialists. And by that I mean usually pretty damn good.

With this kind of coaching expertise and wisdom you will be a head coach and biology professor at a fictional university that is actually a fictional college in San Antonio in no time. Keep up the good work brotha.

Sham 69 wrote:

It's perplexing to me that people are supposedly sucsexful by doing 8 minute miles because that is a pace 90% of athletes can do with ease. There must be millions of high school athletes who run 8 pace on easy days, but why aren't they all Hobbs Kessler? It takes skill to run at 7:00 or under. Prefontaine supposedly did no mileage over 6:40 pace. 8:00 is something everyone can do.

Because he runs easy and relaxed on easy days whereas others push to make sure they hit a pre determined pace. Hobbs success comes from running solid workouts and recovering properly on easy days.

You improve from quality days. Not from pushing the easy days. Dolt.

SWEATELITE: This past fall, after reviewing Farah’s logs, Salazar noticed he had been doing 7-minute miles on easy days. Salazar deemed the pace too pedestrian–that Farah wasn’t getting any physiological benefits from about 40 percent of his weekly volume. He told Farah to accelerate his pace by 60–90 seconds per mile. “Now, he will only run slower than 6-minute pace if he is really tired,” says Salazar, before correcting himself.