Sprint Training Beneficial?

The “heart” of this discussion was how effective are 60-100m sprints, which are basically always done with enough rest to process all lactic acid

fastboy77 wrote:

So generally, what is a good dose of anaerobic training to aerobic training? 2:4 I was thinking.

I don't think it's that simple. One heavy anaerobic session may be all that you want to fit into a week. Other times you can have anaerobic components mixed into things. It's probably better to think about how much lactate a workout accumulates and base things off of how long that single workout might take to recover.

We would probably never see more than 1.5-2 noticeably anaerobic sessions in the same week even for 800m runners. Even there we're controlling how they are set up.

Let's talk about an 800m runner:

A workout like 5x500m done between 800m and 1500m race pace is going to be a hard anaerobic session no matter how you set up recovery

Doing 10x200m at goal race pace with 2:00 rest is absolutely anaerobic, but it's not anywhere near the same level of acidity that you will see from the 500's. Similarly 16x200m at current mile pace with 200m jog could be a pretty light session for some 800m runners when they're in great shape. It wouldn't make sense to compare either of these workouts with the previous one. These might require one easy day before the next workout. The previous one could require 2-3 depending on how deep in the well you went.

You also need to think of the time of year. In the last 4 weeks of training we only have aerobic workouts (for 800m runners) as maintenance. Nearly everything has some kind of anaerobic component. We're just modulating the severity of the workout so we can adapt quickly but be sufficiently recovered.

All of this is also very athlete specific. There are probably smarter coaches than me that can give you a perfect ratio, but I won't claim to know it.

Why do people include tempo runs as a component of aerobic training? LT runs are also called anaerobic threshold runs and thus are anaerobic. They're supposed to hurt a little bit.

fastboy77 wrote:

Why do people include tempo runs as a component of aerobic training? LT runs are also called anaerobic threshold runs and thus are anaerobic. They're supposed to hurt a little bit.

"supposed to hurt" isn't an indicator of aerobic/anaerobic. Marathons are 99% aerobic and hurt like hell.

LT is a pace slower than 5k pace (aerobic) and slower than 10k pace (more aerobic). If you're running them correctly there isn't a significant accumulation of blood acidity. Since it isn't overwhelming your system it's completely fair to call them aerobic.

I think you're misunderstanding the term "anaerobic threshold." Just like the threshold of my front door, if you haven't crossed over it you're still standing outside.

Aerobic/anaerobic aren't binary, they are a continuum. A 1500m isn't "aerobic" or "anaerobic" it's both. I can make workouts using only 1500m pace that are more aerobic than the race itself just by playing around with recoveries and rep distances. Hell, if I wanted to I can make a workout at 400m race pace mostly aerobic if I wanted to.

fastboy77 wrote:

Why do people include tempo runs as a component of aerobic training? LT runs are also called anaerobic threshold runs and thus are anaerobic. They're supposed to hurt a little bit.

No, they're not.

Yeah that is dense. How about this week:

M: Quality Session: 400 reps with 90 sec rest (12 x 400m w/ 90 sec rest -- I like 3 miles of intervals)

T: 45 minutes EASY

W: 45 minutes EASY

Th: 45 minutes EASY

F: Quality Session: 800 reps with 90 sec rest (6 x 800m w/ 90 sec rest)

S: 60 minutes EASY

Sun: Off/Rest Day

This is a general outline a running friend recommended. He runs based on time that's why I have minutes.

What do you think??

fastboy77 wrote:

Yeah that is dense. How about this week:

M: Quality Session: 400 reps with 90 sec rest (12 x 400m w/ 90 sec rest -- I like 3 miles of intervals)

T: 45 minutes EASY

W: 45 minutes EASY

Th: 45 minutes EASY

F: Quality Session: 800 reps with 90 sec rest (6 x 800m w/ 90 sec rest)

S: 60 minutes EASY

Sun: Off/Rest Day

This is a general outline a running friend recommended. He runs based on time that's why I have minutes.

What do you think??

It's an over-correction. Before you were talking about adding sprinting to every single non-workout session. Now you're taking out any kind of quality running except for workouts.

Again, running is rarely binary. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

That's actually what I was going to address next. I don't want to do sprints after every easy day because like you said you do need just easy days. I was thinking 4-8 x 100 on Wednesday and Thursday. That way the days after the harder workouts are completely easy to allow for ample recovery.

That's effectively how we do it. The day before a workout has some fast component after the run. We usually do one of those days as either strides or hills and the other as some form of speed development. The day after a workout is usually just getting in some mileage.

It seems like 12 x 400m on 1:30 rest is a VERY common workout everywhere. What is it about the rest time?

fastboy77 wrote:

It seems like 12 x 400m on 1:30 rest is a VERY common workout everywhere. What is it about the rest time?

Couldn't tell you. I've never had my athletes do that workout.

fastboy77 wrote:

It seems like 12 x 400m on 1:30 rest is a VERY common workout everywhere. What is it about the rest time?

Curious, what are best recent race times?

If you're doing this workout around HM/10K pace (slower if early season, young, aerobically weaker, etc.), you'd need to drastically shorten the rest (and probably float it at a solid pace) to come close to getting that response. I can't quite think of a workout where you'd need 90 seconds after a 400.

Zante wrote:

fastboy77 wrote:

It seems like 12 x 400m on 1:30 rest is a VERY common workout everywhere. What is it about the rest time?

Curious, what are best recent race times?

If you're doing this workout around HM/10K pace (slower if early season, young, aerobically weaker, etc.), you'd need to drastically shorten the rest (and probably float it at a solid pace) to come close to getting that response. I can't quite think of a workout where you'd need 90 seconds after a 400.

Your* best.

80-100 is too far if you are looking at this as a pure speed session - that's speed endurance distance. They also require a hell of a lot of recovery time.

Look at something like flying 20s or sprints to 50m all of 5-6 minutes. 3-5 reps a session, once a week will do you more good than you would expect. Do it before any other work. Trying to do it whilst in any state of fatigue renders the work pointless.

Man I’ve been seeing your threads pop up a ton recently.

Aren’t you a freshman or something?

I’m going to lay it down here real simple for you.

Don’t worry about all the specifics.

You’re a developing runner. All you need to improve right now is to run more. It’s a long term process and you’re getting way too caught up in analyzing every single little detail from the beginning.

I’ve ran into too many people like you and it’s the same mentality every time. Should’ve would’ve could’ve.

If you want to improve just slowly increase your mileage, have one uptempo run a week, run a long run and do some strides.

There’s no reason to get bogged down in specifics. This stuff will come to you naturally as you grow in the sport.

Just have fun and stop worrying

Best advice I've seen on here. Simple and to the point.

Thank you.

Just curious - what are your best race times?

I’ll counter with a question myself.

If my times are slow will you discredit my advice?

If they are what you consider “fast” will you take it?

There is much comparison in this sport. One does not need to have run fast times himself to give good advice. In fact, I could completely lie about my times and you wouldn’t know any the wiser, considering I’m an anonymous entity.

I’ll give you a ballpark range though. I’ve run a couple sub 4 miles and a handful of sub 14 5ks.

My point is not that you will become the greatest athlete you can just by running a decent amount and adding in a workout here and there.

My point is that there is a time and place for everything. You seem too eager to learn, which is concerning. Ask yourself why you like to run. What is your purpose in this sport.

You must learn to embrace naturalness as a beginning. Your job is not to analyze but to run.

“Do or do not. There is no try”

GGGG wrote:

80-100 is too far if you are looking at this as a pure speed session - that's speed endurance distance. They also require a hell of a lot of recovery time.

Look at something like flying 20s or sprints to 50m all of 5-6 minutes. 3-5 reps a session, once a week will do you more good than you would expect. Do it before any other work. Trying to do it whilst in any state of fatigue renders the work pointless.

^ This

Earlier you referred to 100, 150, and 200 as alactic. They are not, that's spend endurance going into special endurance. Sprints between 6-10 seconds done first or separately is alactic and considered speed work. Reps of 100-500 is not speed work. Read the thread that was posted earlier.

^

best training advice you can get. Just get in the miles