Your Lactic threshold pace workout should be around 5'40-5'45/mile
6'/mile is slower than your LT pace.
Your Lactic threshold pace workout should be around 5'40-5'45/mile
6'/mile is slower than your LT pace.
David Brent wrote:
Thanks everyone for contributing your ideas. I have a hard time seeing it as a training deficit--I train with some other sub 3 marathoners who run comparable or lower weekly mileage and can't break 1:23 in a HM.
To answer a few of the questions I'm seeing...
I was very careful about pacing yesterday just hoping to break 3 hr--averaged 6:50s for the first 20 miles (6:37, fastest to 7:02, slowest) which frankly does feel like jogging.
My buildup was essentially since March. Had a 6-day break in July and a 4-day break in early September due to wildfire smoke.
I did not sweat a ton yesterday.--it was cool. Perhaps I am losing too much salt in my sweat, but I am definitely NOT an especially sweaty runner.
I have a half PR of 1:13:13 from when I was much younger (late 30s now), which I ran on 70-80 mpw. Although my weekly mileage is a bit lower now, I'm doing a lot more long runs--I had three consecutive weeks of 20+ mile long runs in my recent buildup and have done 8 or 9 total since May. Cramping has occasionally been an issue during long runs--always cured by a brief stop to stretch.
Strength training is inconsistent and certainly an area for improvement as far as reaching my potential, but I'd like to think there is a simpler nutritional/hydration answer that will at least allow me to get into the 2:50s and/or run the distance without debilitating muscle cramps.
Thanks again.
Could just be you're a fast guy and HM is the top end of your endurance spectrum. I'm not saying you can't go sub-3 but you might just have to put in more miles than your slower training buddies who have better aerobic capacity. I see it quite a lot. I get hung out to dry over 10k and HM by guys who can't get near me over the marathon. My first sub-3 came off 55 now but one of the people I train with had to go to 80 now for the same time. You'll get there
David Brent wrote:
...To answer a few of the questions I'm seeing...
I was very careful about pacing yesterday just hoping to break 3 hr--averaged 6:50s for the first 20 miles (6:37, fastest to 7:02, slowest) which frankly does feel like jogging.
My buildup was essentially since March. Had a 6-day break in July and a 4-day break in early September due to wildfire smoke.
I did not sweat a ton yesterday.--it was cool. Perhaps I am losing too much salt in my sweat, but I am definitely NOT an especially sweaty runner.
I have a half PR of 1:13:13 from when I was much younger (late 30s now), which I ran on 70-80 mpw. Although my weekly mileage is a bit lower now, I'm doing a lot more long runs--I had three consecutive weeks of 20+ mile long runs in my recent buildup and have done 8 or 9 total since May. Cramping has occasionally been an issue during long runs--always cured by a brief stop to stretch.
Strength training is inconsistent and certainly an area for improvement as far as reaching my potential, but I'd like to think there is a simpler nutritional/hydration answer that will at least allow me to get into the 2:50s and/or run the distance without debilitating muscle cramps.
...
You're training is great and natural ability is quite good (wish i was that fast!), maybe missing one or two things. I had similar issues, not quite as bad cramping as you, but mostly what i call pre-cramp the last 10k. How did i fix it?
I was doing all my training in heavy cushy shoes, thinking that race day flats would feel super light, and they did! But flats have a different heel/toes slant, and much less cushioning, so my quads were destroyed by 30-35k due to the new/unusual stresses. I started doing all my tempo runs in flats, Daniels 5k repeat tempos, and MP-5 sec/K tempos upto 24k long. This pretty much got rid of my issues. Sure the last 5-10k was still hard, but i could push through it and had splits within a minute, two at most.
I also had a de-loading week once every 4 weeks or so (only 30miles). Training typically 55-65mpw. I was racing HM around 1:20, 10ks around high 36-low37, last 2 marathons were 2:50.xx aged in mid 40s, so you should be much faster! 5'10.5 157lbs or so. Sushi dinner night before was my goto meal, two bottles of gatorade with breakfast starting around 5am, ensuring there as a decent hit of protein.
Lastly, carbon plate shoes may save your quads/cramping (i've not tried them), but the underlying issues should be addressed first.
Either you are not used to run on tired legs or you have to work on utilizing fat for fuel. It may be a genetic thing so maybe you will have to focus more on the fuel thing than most. I know xc-skiers strugling with it and some of the best run a few hours before eating twice before competition. I am not saying it works for you, but maybe
I do not second the suggestion to run more miles. I suck at long distances, but have run 2:53 on 40-50mpw when my half PR was 1:20, unless you are built like a sprinter, I do not see why you would need more than 60mpw to break three hours with a 1:16 half PB.
My guess is that either nutrition or shoes are the problem. Some people does not need much fueling but may need more water. Try varying your nutrition/drinking strategy on the long runs and see how it goes. Also, perhaps the shoes you use on race day are too hard on your legs and you get too much muscular damage, leading to cramps. Try running on shoes you feel very comfortable on your long runs, even if they may be heavier, you should be able to break three hours by 15+ minutes if everything aligns and it would be no problem wearing a shoe that makes you a couple of minutes slower if that means avoiding the risk of cramps.
David Brent wrote:
Juice Springsteen wrote:
Hydration and nutrition and maybe pain tolerance
My routine has been 10 oz of GU Roctane Drink + 1 GU gel at miles 6, 13, 19, and 23. Not enough?
Ideally, all of your nutrition is consumed 35 minutes before the finish or earlier. Your last bit of nutrition is too late. You need to get your last dose of nutrition down by mile 20 - so maybe drink at miles 6, 11, 16, and 19. You can decide if you need more around mile 21 (this bit of nutrition though will only start to be available to you in the last mile). You won't have digested the nutrition consumed at mile 23 for at least another 20-30 minutes, and by then you are already either finished or bonking.
At what mile exactly are you starting to have major difficulties? It is really key to get some nutrition in 35 min before that mile.
David Brent wrote:
I might not need that much. I only have two gels and 20 oz. on 20 mile runs (so, half). I can't imagine the cramps are coming from taking in TOO MUCH, though, right?
Maybe, but I usually like to break things back down to their bare minimum and see if they are really necessary.
How are your long runs? For those 22.5 mile runs, what kind of pace are you holding? And you don't have any issues with cramping on those runs?
David Brent wrote:
Free_the_thigh wrote:
Everyone just overlooking this?
Drink some water /thread
Just to clarify, you did see that I drank 40 oz. of GU roctane hydration mix, right?
That clearly isn’t enough.
You need to drink more. You should be drinking water and sports drink.
I’ll drink 40 oz on a 90 minute run.
Free_the_thigh wrote:
David Brent wrote:
Just to clarify, you did see that I drank 40 oz. of GU roctane hydration mix, right?
That clearly isn’t enough.
You need to drink more. You should be drinking water and sports drink.
I’ll drink 40 oz on a 90 minute run.
I've gotta chime in on this as well - it's definitely a hydration/nutrition issue.
I had the same exact issue, with either calf or hamstring cramps ruining 3 marathons in a row after great build-ups and good fitness.
I ended up getting a copy of Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and reading up on hydration and nutrition. I made a point to figure out how much I could handle in terms of oz of liquid and g of carbohydrate during my long runs. I found that 20 oz of water per hour and 50g of carbohydrate per hour were perfect for my weight and pace (140 lbs and 6:30 per mile), using a mix of water/Gatorade and Clif Shot gels. The next three marathons I ran, I had no cramping issues at all!
Good luck and I hope that you can resolve your cramping issue!
Has anyone asked you what kind of cramps, where? If legs cramps are mainly caused by stress on nerves mis firing as you are running faster and longer than your usual. Happened to me alot until I started in with calf sleeves and light compression shorts (Salomon Short Tights for me). Never after, ever. If elsewhere not sure but you need to take in enough fluids (but not to much) along the way. I sip at every aid station and a gel every 40 or so minutes.
Drink water as well. Id change from that gu drink as well to something else as its not working.
Do hill reps and squats etc strength training.
Absolutely a troll/bait/attention seeker post. There is no way you have run 1:16 and can’t break 3 hours. I broke 3 hours off a half time that is over ten minutes slower. You should be able to run 2:45 with that half time.
David Brent wrote:
60+ miles per week, long runs up to 22.5 miles with plenty of goal pace mixed in, weekly threshold work in low 6:00s. 3 hour pace feels so easy aerobically, but I keep getting destroyed by cramps in the last couple miles. What am I doing wrong?
I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I ran my first marathon in 3:02 with a half marathon PR of 1:26. This was with a max mileage of 60 MPW.
When I improved my half PR to 1:16, a couple months later I ran a 2:46 marathon in pretty terrible conditions. This was slightly slower than I expected, but not terrible. But my mileage was far higher. I maxed out at 95 MPW, averaging about 90 in the final 6 weeks.
My advice: Increase your mileage. Your aerobic endurance needs some work. Don't overcook your training. Err on the side of easy. And don't go out to fast on race day. There's not reason why you can't knock off at least 15 minutes. At least.
runnER/DR wrote:
David Brent wrote:
60+ miles per week, long runs up to 22.5 miles with plenty of goal pace mixed in, weekly threshold work in low 6:00s. 3 hour pace feels so easy aerobically, but I keep getting destroyed by cramps in the last couple miles. What am I doing wrong?
My advice: Increase your mileage. Your aerobic endurance needs some work. Don't overcook your training. Err on the side of easy. And don't go out to fast on race day. There's not reason why you can't knock off at least 15 minutes. At least.
If my aerobic endurance were poor, then my heart rate would be near max towards the end of the race and I would've felt lactate building up like crazy. Neither of those things were true. The pace felt easy throughout the run, then debilitating cramps hit in the last 2-3 miles.
David Brent wrote:
runnER/DR wrote:
My advice: Increase your mileage. Your aerobic endurance needs some work. Don't overcook your training. Err on the side of easy. And don't go out to fast on race day. There's not reason why you can't knock off at least 15 minutes. At least.
If my aerobic endurance were poor, then my heart rate would be near max towards the end of the race and I would've felt lactate building up like crazy. Neither of those things were true. The pace felt easy throughout the run, then debilitating cramps hit in the last 2-3 miles.
Cramps are usually a sign of severe fatigue. I fear you're falsely attributing cramps to dehydration or some electrolyte problem. People overplay the dehydration/electrolyte/glycogen argument in marathons all the time. Honestly, the marathon is just a COMPLETELY different race than a half marathon. It requires far higher mileage...or you'll cramp up due to plain old fatigue.
Part of it is over estimating fitness. Part of it is going out too fast. I've had fantastic marathons where I've been able to crush it all the way to the end. I've also had marathons where my legs completely cramped up and shut down. It's always because I overestimated my fitness and went too hard for my level of fitness.
David Brent wrote:
If my aerobic endurance were poor, then my heart rate would be near max towards the end of the race and I would've felt lactate building up like crazy. Neither of those things were true. The pace felt easy throughout the run, then debilitating cramps hit in the last 2-3 miles.
That's not how it works, actually. The hydration and electrolyte theories of cramping haven't worked out. It's caused by plain old fatigue, and you can have considerable fatigue, even debilitating fatigue, at the end of a marathon without a high heart rate or lactate buildup. By all means keep experimenting with shoes, hydration, and nutrition, but your problem is fatigue, and the easiest way to build endurance is to run more miles each week.
Just buy normal shoes
Read the book called the salt fix. It sounds like you need to tighten up on the hydration piece. You will run much faster!
To those jumping to higher mileage, there are much simpler and more effective methods to improve than doubling down on slamming the body. Based on the OP's information it is a hydration and mineral issue. All the water and gu in the world won't help if you have low salt and happen to run every day (further reducing salt levels). I would argue that based on the given information, higher mileage might actually make him/her slower (inducing worse cramping/ sooner).
Cheers
How long have you been doing 60+ miles per week?
runnER/DR wrote:
David Brent wrote:
If my aerobic endurance were poor, then my heart rate would be near max towards the end of the race and I would've felt lactate building up like crazy. Neither of those things were true. The pace felt easy throughout the run, then debilitating cramps hit in the last 2-3 miles.
Cramps are usually a sign of severe fatigue. I fear you're falsely attributing cramps to dehydration or some electrolyte problem. People overplay the dehydration/electrolyte/glycogen argument in marathons all the time. Honestly, the marathon is just a COMPLETELY different race than a half marathon. It requires far higher mileage...or you'll cramp up due to plain old fatigue.
Part of it is over estimating fitness. Part of it is going out too fast. I've had fantastic marathons where I've been able to crush it all the way to the end. I've also had marathons where my legs completely cramped up and shut down. It's always because I overestimated my fitness and went too hard for my level of fitness.
I have actually no idea what the solution is (or what the underlying problem is), but I can testify that if OP can run a 1:16 HM (which is my PB) that a 3:00 full should feel easy. That's 3:3x/km, whereas a 3:00 is 4:15/km. That's a massive difference. I really believe that if you're in 1:16 shape you should be able to just jog to 2:59 on the full.
I would also try to change race nutrition/drinking, and also practice this in training. With some practice, you can run a 32km/20mi fasted at a decent pace, but you're eating and drinking for those last 10km in the marathon.