wejo wrote:
The people who attack Caster personally should be ashamed.
I can say that and still say I think this is the right decision.
The politics of inclusivity have collided with the principle of fairness in sport. Fairness won out - which is better for sport.
It is regrettable that the arguments quickly descend into prejudice - on both sides.
If only doping could be dealt with as expeditiously. But I suspect that is one we will never win.
innocent observer wrote:
wejo wrote:
I think it’s a good day for female sport but some disagree .
Tough day for Semenya
No need to be PC and say some disagree.... it's just a good day for sport.
That isn't being PC. It was never a black and white issue but involved competing principles. It is also certainly tough for the competitor most directly affected.
Fasterer wrote:
wimens right hurray wrote:
Obviously Semenya does not have female DNA or it would have closed this case years ago.
You are a moron if you think the only advantage a male athlete has over a female is testosterone.
Every system in the human body in a male
contributes to their superior athletic performance, not just the endocrine system.
You can’t change a man into a women by lowering testosterone. It’s impossible to level the sporting field for men and women. You’d have to alter the DNA of trillions of cells, AT Conception.
This is a win for women’s sports.
Women’s world rugby also just banned transgender participants from competing in the women’s competition.
Finally some people understand that this is about women’s rights, half the population of the world.
The rights of those with biological disorders and mental health issues do not include stripping the rights of half the population of the earth.
The special Olympics should open up categories for those with gender disorders and mental health issues pertaining to gender identity. I’m not being disparaging by saying this. The special Olympics is for those with physical and intellectual disabilities.
^^^^
This is entirely correct.
It is easy to label those who see life differently from from you as having "mental health issues".
Ok, explain to me how having male DNA and believing in you mind you are a female is not a mental health issue?
Also, you better explain it to the American Psychiatry Association.
They consider it a mental health issue.
did the time I ain't kiddin wrote:
*histerical and ignorant SJWs*
We assume you meant hysterical both times you tried to write it. The word is a slander against women: hystera is the ancient Greek word for womb (hence hysterectomy means surgical removal of the uterus), and by the 19th C., "hysteria" was a diagnosis of excessive emotion, which was a disease that only women could get - according to the medical wisdom of those days.
Maybe it is useless to introduce actual science into this discussion, but I will try anyway because I am a hopeless optimist who believes I'm not the only one willing to listen and learn.
"Questioning ethics" writes: "She is a biological and genetic female, do you know nothing about Intersex?" A+ for confidence, zero for scientific accuracy. Semenya is 46,XY which is genetically male, the opposite of what you said. "She is a biological ...female" is also incorrect, because people with differences of sexual development (DSD) are biologically male-like in some ways and biologically female-like in other ways. The ways includes internal and external anatomy, the reproductive organs present, the hormones made, and the ability of cells to respond to those hormones. People who are 46,XY with DSD are not "either/or". They are more complicated. Which is why "Who may compete as a woman?" is a very difficult question, and good and intelligent people have come to different conclusions. (The Court of Arbitration for Sport split 2-1 in their 2019 decision, for example.)
People who are $46,XY with DSD have been treated horribly throughout history, and it is very sad to see that that continues on this board. For example: "Caster is a cheater hiding behind a human rights facade" and "SHE made a choice, now SHE must play on a level playing field". She (and I use that pronoun because it is the one she prefers) was told she was a girl from birth, by her parents, teachers, and coaches. She did not choose to be a girl any more than she chose her chromosomes. Imagine being in her shoes, for her life. No matter how we feel about the latest court decision, we can all treat her with dignity and respect and sympathy.
I hate talking about these issues but they are important and need to be addressed.
I hate talking about them because I do believe that trans and intersex women ARE women. But they are women with an advantage in sports that is (in my opinion) unfair. Now I want to be clear. I hate that I think this. I have tried very hard to unthink this. I have read arguments from trans activists and athletes. But I've never been truly convinced.
Gender is a social construct. But so are sports. Women, or Cis Women at least, when they fought for the right to play, they didn't fight for the right to play WITH men, and that was for a reason. It's one of the only 'separate but equal' civil rights movements I can think of.
Now taking trans and intersex athletes out of the equation for a second, I don't know what makes cis men better athletes than cis women. Testosterone? Bone density? Lung capacity? All of the above and more? It's clear that there's not an answer for that right now. But pull up any XC or track meet. Any one you want. middle school. high school. college, professional--you'll see the same thing. Males far exceed the females in performance every single time.
As a cis woman, I was a decent competitive runner. There is an argument that because I was faster than some males than there's no true competitive edge. But I had accomplishments. All State and whatnot. Line me up against an All State boy, well....the race is won probably in the first 200 meters.
The thing that this ultimately comes down to for me is that while I do believe that trans and intersex women have an unfair advantage over their counterparts, there is no solution that I think is humane, just or fair. Caster taking drugs she does not need or want to take? Like...seriously who would do that??? And I don't think it's fair to say 'wellll she can compete with the men' or 'wellll she can run the 200'. She ran the 800 already, she's competed in it for years. She's not going to change her whole life around without a dang fight.
I also despise the idea of excluding trans and intersex women from sports. Sports is a social construct that is supposed to celebrate hunanity, not exclude or dehumanize people.
Ultimately, I hope I am one day convinced that trans and intersex women do not have an unfair advantage. That would be mighty convenient for me.
You sound like you're having a hard time with self-worth. A statement like "I hate that I think thais way" is tough to read. A person who is secure in themselves and their beliefs says something like, "You have your belief, I have my belief and that's great! If you have an issue with that let's talk, but I'm not ashamed of who I am". Stop being ashamed of who you are because your friends or family or school etc. tell you you should be ashamed.
koinion wrote:
I hate talking about these issues but they are important and need to be addressed.
I hate talking about them because I do believe that trans and intersex women ARE women. But they are women with an advantage in sports that is (in my opinion) unfair. Now I want to be clear. I hate that I think this. I have tried very hard to unthink this. I have read arguments from trans activists and athletes. But I've never been truly convinced.
Gender is a social construct. But so are sports. Women, or Cis Women at least, when they fought for the right to play, they didn't fight for the right to play WITH men, and that was for a reason. It's one of the only 'separate but equal' civil rights movements I can think of.
Now taking trans and intersex athletes out of the equation for a second, I don't know what makes cis men better athletes than cis women. Testosterone? Bone density? Lung capacity? All of the above and more? It's clear that there's not an answer for that right now. But pull up any XC or track meet. Any one you want. middle school. high school. college, professional--you'll see the same thing. Males far exceed the females in performance every single time.
As a cis woman, I was a decent competitive runner. There is an argument that because I was faster than some males than there's no true competitive edge. But I had accomplishments. All State and whatnot. Line me up against an All State boy, well....the race is won probably in the first 200 meters.
The thing that this ultimately comes down to for me is that while I do believe that trans and intersex women have an unfair advantage over their counterparts, there is no solution that I think is humane, just or fair. Caster taking drugs she does not need or want to take? Like...seriously who would do that??? And I don't think it's fair to say 'wellll she can compete with the men' or 'wellll she can run the 200'. She ran the 800 already, she's competed in it for years. She's not going to change her whole life around without a dang fight.
I also despise the idea of excluding trans and intersex women from sports. Sports is a social construct that is supposed to celebrate hunanity, not exclude or dehumanize people.
Ultimately, I hope I am one day convinced that trans and intersex women do not have an unfair advantage. That would be mighty convenient for me.
wimens right hurray wrote:
https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoriaAlso, you better explain it to the American Psychiatry Association.
They consider it a mental health issue.
They also once viewed homosexuality as deviance and a psychological issue.
A World Health Organization expert said it now understands transgender is "not actually a mental health condition".
https://www-bbc-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/health-48448804?amp_js_v=a3&_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15996279479674&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&_tf=From%20%251%24s&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.com%2Fnews%2Fhealth-48448804usagedenied wrote:
You sound like you're having a hard time with self-worth. A statement like "I hate that I think thais way" is tough to read.
A person who is secure in themselves and their beliefs says something like, "You have your belief, I have my belief and that's great! If you have an issue with that let's talk, but I'm not ashamed of who I am".
Stop being ashamed of who you are because your friends or family or school etc. tell you you should be ashamed.
koinion wrote:
I hate talking about these issues but they are important and need to be addressed.
I hate talking about them because I do believe that trans and intersex women ARE women. But they are women with an advantage in sports that is (in my opinion) unfair. Now I want to be clear. I hate that I think this. I have tried very hard to unthink this. I have read arguments from trans activists and athletes. But I've never been truly convinced.
Gender is a social construct. But so are sports. Women, or Cis Women at least, when they fought for the right to play, they didn't fight for the right to play WITH men, and that was for a reason. It's one of the only 'separate but equal' civil rights movements I can think of.
Now taking trans and intersex athletes out of the equation for a second, I don't know what makes cis men better athletes than cis women. Testosterone? Bone density? Lung capacity? All of the above and more? It's clear that there's not an answer for that right now. But pull up any XC or track meet. Any one you want. middle school. high school. college, professional--you'll see the same thing. Males far exceed the females in performance every single time.
As a cis woman, I was a decent competitive runner. There is an argument that because I was faster than some males than there's no true competitive edge. But I had accomplishments. All State and whatnot. Line me up against an All State boy, well....the race is won probably in the first 200 meters.
The thing that this ultimately comes down to for me is that while I do believe that trans and intersex women have an unfair advantage over their counterparts, there is no solution that I think is humane, just or fair. Caster taking drugs she does not need or want to take? Like...seriously who would do that??? And I don't think it's fair to say 'wellll she can compete with the men' or 'wellll she can run the 200'. She ran the 800 already, she's competed in it for years. She's not going to change her whole life around without a dang fight.
I also despise the idea of excluding trans and intersex women from sports. Sports is a social construct that is supposed to celebrate hunanity, not exclude or dehumanize people.
Ultimately, I hope I am one day convinced that trans and intersex women do not have an unfair advantage. That would be mighty convenient for me.
JFC I'm not ashamed of who I am. I am someone who believes in equality, equity and inclusion. So it bothers me on a moral level that I'm not convinced that trans and intersex women don't have an unfair advantage in sport. Relax.
wimens right hurray wrote:
Ok, explain to me how having male DNA and believing in you mind you are a female is not a mental health issue?
Yes, it might be - in the same way as believing in an invisible divine Creator might be. Or fancying people of the same gender - when most don't. Or even liking Barry Manilow. On the other hand, they might be happier that way. That sounds fairly healthy to me.
Haha dude, I am relaxed. I didn't just pour my feelings out in a half page essay. I also believe in equality but I also believe in logic. How can this possibly bother you on a moral level? You don't have to have SJW guilt about this one bro. You can still be 100% lefty liberal (as am I) warrior and not feel bad about this. You should be worrying about real social challenges like income inequality and racial injustice. Put your SJW guilt into those bro.
koinion wrote:
JFC I'm not ashamed of who I am. I am someone who believes in equality, equity and inclusion. So it bothers me on a moral level that I'm not convinced that trans and intersex women don't have an unfair advantage in sport. Relax.
I am someone who believes in equality, equity and inclusion. So it bothers me on a moral level that I'm not convinced that trans and intersex women don't have an unfair advantage in sport.[/quote]
It isn't surprising you feel conflicted. There are two opposing principles involved: inclusivity - which favours transgender participation - and fairness - which says they have biological advantages that cis women like yourself cannot compete with.
One of those principles must be relegated in any decision either way. Both principles have a moral component - or there could be no justification for either.
The evidence shows that the biological advantages transgender/intersex women have over cis women are undeniable. The question then is what becomes of women's sport if they are permitted to compete with cis women? The best solution so far is the one arrived at by the sports ruling bodies. But it comes at a price to transgender/intersex athletes.
usagedenied wrote:
Haha dude, I am relaxed. I didn't just pour my feelings out in a half page essay.
I also believe in equality but I also believe in logic. How can this possibly bother you on a moral level?
You don't have to have SJW guilt about this one bro. You can still be 100% lefty liberal (as am I) warrior and not feel bad about this.
You should be worrying about real social challenges like income inequality and racial injustice. Put your SJW guilt into those bro.
koinion wrote:
JFC I'm not ashamed of who I am. I am someone who believes in equality, equity and inclusion. So it bothers me on a moral level that I'm not convinced that trans and intersex women don't have an unfair advantage in sport. Relax.
"Bro"?
I think it's a sad situation because she didn't choose to be like this. She should have been made the exception. Anyone in the future should be included in the rule but not her. My reasoning is that she already competed and won medals before, why ban her now?
Shouldn't feel conflicted. And that was well said. It is fairness v. inclusivity. But where the parameters of the activity clearly outline boundaries of inclusivity it's an easy moral judgement!
Armstronglivs wrote:
I am someone who believes in equality, equity and inclusion. So it bothers me on a moral level that I'm not convinced that trans and intersex women don't have an unfair advantage in sport.
It isn't surprising you feel conflicted. There are two opposing principles involved: inclusivity - which favours transgender participation - and fairness - which says they have biological advantages that cis women like yourself cannot compete with.
One of those principles must be relegated in any decision either way. Both principles have a moral component - or there could be no justification for either.
The evidence shows that the biological advantages transgender/intersex women have over cis women are undeniable. The question then is what becomes of women's sport if they are permitted to compete with cis women? The best solution so far is the one arrived at by the sports ruling bodies. But it comes at a price to transgender/intersex athletes.[/quote]
Yeah. You have a point?
Armstronglivs wrote:
"Bro"?
So if people make a mistake they shouldn't ever rectify the situation?
Belarussiya wrote:
I think it's a sad situation because she didn't choose to be like this. She should have been made the exception. Anyone in the future should be included in the rule but not her. My reasoning is that she already competed and won medals before, why ban her now?
Armstronglivs wrote:
innocent observer wrote:
No need to be PC and say some disagree.... it's just a good day for sport.
That isn't being PC. It was never a black and white issue but involved competing principles. It is also certainly tough for the competitor most directly affected.
Actually, in South Africa politicians did spin this as black and white issue in order to score political points and criminalise whites.
It was already known of her condition for many years and she was still allowed to compete. Why the sudden change in tone the past 2 years now? She was abused and treated unfairly and in an extremely dehumanizing way. Her ban is absolutely disgusting to me.