She is not underappreciated.
Never won Olympic Gold.
Cratered when it mattered most and her biological passport failure should have resulted in a ban but she is protected class.
She is not underappreciated.
Never won Olympic Gold.
Cratered when it mattered most and her biological passport failure should have resulted in a ban but she is protected class.
kingojamin wrote:
Or just an extreme responder like Lance Armstrong.
DING-DING-DING-DING!! We have a winner!
rekrunner wrote:
casual obsever wrote:
Because doping is only a partial explanation.
For the marathon, it is very likely a small part.
In terms of recovery from the brutal training they do, doping can be a big part.
Jesus, your grammar is appalling.
Paula EPO Queen.
biggest doping outLIAR in history
I use to think so till I saw Jakob. If Jakob can run 3:28(I believe he’s 100% clean)... there is no way an East African with incentive (life or death situation at times) can’t run 3:26.
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
For the marathon, it is very likely a small part.
In terms of recovery from the brutal training they do, doping can be a big part.
Doping clearly can help distance runners. EPO gives some people some huge performance boosts and steroids help you do crazy training.
But doping doesn't really explain anything given that other elites were also doping. So either the ones at her talent level didn't dope (possible but after what has come out of east african in the last 2 years that seems a bit delusional) or she had a better program.
Heck the 2:15 was an outlier for her. It was 2 mins faster than her next best time.
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
rekrunner wrote:
For the marathon, it is very likely a small part.
In terms of recovery from the brutal training they do, doping can be a big part.
"Can be" can also mean "might not be".
This is one of several unproven myths about doping -- the next step is to translate this myth into knowledge of the fastest marathon performances of dopers versus non-dopers.
With respect to the marathon, the Sunday Times crossed 12-years of blood data results with Olympic and World Championship medals, and found that the marathon was the "cleanest" event, by far. They found only 1 in 9 medals were won by "suspicious" athletes. That means there was no suspicion for 8 in 9 medals. Not a very promising indicator of doping being a big part of marathon performances.
In another thread, still emphasizing "knowledge", I asked what are the fastest "known" marathon performances which were dirty.
For the men, there were several 2:05-ish candidates, but the fastest was the short course run of Abraham Kiptum, probably worth 2:04:50. Note this result was not annulled, so it may or may not be dirty -- we don't know. Note also that Kiptum took second in that race behind a runner not busted.
For the women, we have Shubokhova's 2:18:20 and Jeptoo's 2:18:59.
So it is not clear, especially for the marathon, that doping plays a large part in the fastest marathon performances.
The gestalt I get from letsrun posters is that she is wildely recognized as being a freakish outlier. And that's exactly why nobody respects her. Its too unbelievable. I'm not accusing her of doping, but it is widely suspected among serious runners.
rekrunner wrote:
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
In terms of recovery from the brutal training they do, doping can be a big part.
"Can be" can also mean "might not be".
This is one of several unproven myths about doping -- the next step is to translate this myth into knowledge of the fastest marathon performances of dopers versus non-dopers.
With respect to the marathon, the Sunday Times crossed 12-years of blood data results with Olympic and World Championship medals, and found that the marathon was the "cleanest" event, by far. They found only 1 in 9 medals were won by "suspicious" athletes. That means there was no suspicion for 8 in 9 medals. Not a very promising indicator of doping being a big part of marathon performances.
In another thread, still emphasizing "knowledge", I asked what are the fastest "known" marathon performances which were dirty.
For the men, there were several 2:05-ish candidates, but the fastest was the short course run of Abraham Kiptum, probably worth 2:04:50. Note this result was not annulled, so it may or may not be dirty -- we don't know. Note also that Kiptum took second in that race behind a runner not busted.
For the women, we have Shubokhova's 2:18:20 and Jeptoo's 2:18:59.
So it is not clear, especially for the marathon, that doping plays a large part in the fastest marathon performances.
Some problems with your post: The Sunday Times only looked at blood data - it didn't account for other known PEDs that runners use such as androgens, SARMs, corticosteroids, etc. And it's not a "myth" that distance runners particularly marathon runners use androgens. Go look at the number of steroid & testosterone positives with Kenyan distance runners - a fact you've pointed many times when you're arguing that blood doping is less prevelant with Kenyans. I can see where androgens and even SARMs would be beneficial to a marathon runner given the suppressed hormonal state that their brutal training puts them in. This puts incredible amount of stress and strain on the athlete’s body resulting in unwanted physiological responses and health problems (slow recovery, fatigue, increased risk of injury, etc).
I'm not saying every Kenyan distance runner is on the juice but you would have to admit they have a lot of positives which suggests widespread use. We also don't know if any small amount of blood doping was also used in conjunction with these androgen positives that escaped detection. Or...if the athlete figures their VO2max & endurance capacity is high enough and he/she only wants some androgens to aide in strength and recovery, and be at their strongest come race time.
Also, confirmed doper KISORIO has a 2:04:53 marathon. Recall he was popped for steroids and after his ban he appeared on the FB WADA-hacked document in 2016 as "Likely Doping."
runnER/DR wrote:
The gestalt I get from letsrun posters is that she is wildely recognized as being a freakish outlier. And that's exactly why nobody respects her. Its too unbelievable. I'm not accusing her of doping, but it is widely suspected among serious runners.
There were numerous women including East Africans who were even caught doping to try and beat her record. I would guess that she was indeed on a ton of peds but when every other elite runner is on them too it's an even playing field again and it goes back to genetics/work ethic/will. In my opinion Kosegi was on peds too in addition to using cheater flys.
Rainy Day wrote:
Even with doping, when was the last time a Western European man held a distance WR? I started watching when it was Tergat and Geb battling and I never really went back to check on that.
Alberto Salazar ? Born in Cuba but genetically European.
Mona (again, genetically European) held the half in 1993
Oh that Pinto guy broke the half WR in 1998 . Surely its gotta be that.
rekrunner wrote:
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
In terms of recovery from the brutal training they do, doping can be a big part.
"Can be" can also mean "might not be".
This is one of several unproven myths about doping -- the next step is to translate this myth into knowledge of the fastest marathon performances of dopers versus non-dopers.
With respect to the marathon, the Sunday Times crossed 12-years of blood data results with Olympic and World Championship medals, and found that the marathon was the "cleanest" event, by far. They found only 1 in 9 medals were won by "suspicious" athletes. That means there was no suspicion for 8 in 9 medals. Not a very promising indicator of doping being a big part of marathon performances.
In another thread, still emphasizing "knowledge", I asked what are the fastest "known" marathon performances which were dirty.
For the men, there were several 2:05-ish candidates, but the fastest was the short course run of Abraham Kiptum, probably worth 2:04:50. Note this result was not annulled, so it may or may not be dirty -- we don't know. Note also that Kiptum took second in that race behind a runner not busted.
For the women, we have Shubokhova's 2:18:20 and Jeptoo's 2:18:59.
So it is not clear, especially for the marathon, that doping plays a large part in the fastest marathon performances.
It will play the same role as it does in any other sport. Marathon runners - who also typically compete in shorter events - as Paula did - are not in an ethical class apart from other sports competitors. If there is doping in curling, championships darts and chess there will also be doping in any running event, that includes the marathon.
Heelstriker wrote:
runnER/DR wrote:
The gestalt I get from letsrun posters is that she is wildely recognized as being a freakish outlier. And that's exactly why nobody respects her. Its too unbelievable. I'm not accusing her of doping, but it is widely suspected among serious runners.
There were numerous women including East Africans who were even caught doping to try and beat her record. I would guess that she was indeed on a ton of peds but when every other elite runner is on them too it's an even playing field again and it goes back to genetics/work ethic/will. In my opinion Kosegi was on peds too in addition to using cheater flys.
Doping is not a "level playing field". It is an arms race.
Yellow Tail wrote:
I use to think so till I saw Jakob. If Jakob can run 3:28(I believe he’s 100% clean)... there is no way an East African with incentive (life or death situation at times) can’t run 3:26.
Jacob is as clean as anyone else who hasn't failed a doping test. That includes most dopers - nearly one in two championship-level athletes, according to athlete surveys.
Let's get to the bottom of this wrote:
Some problems with your post: The Sunday Times only looked at blood data - it didn't account for other known PEDs that runners use such as androgens, SARMs, corticosteroids, etc. And it's not a "myth" that distance runners particularly marathon runners use androgens. Go look at the number of steroid & testosterone positives with Kenyan distance runners - a fact you've pointed many times when you're arguing that blood doping is less prevelant with Kenyans. I can see where androgens and even SARMs would be beneficial to a marathon runner given the suppressed hormonal state that their brutal training puts them in. This puts incredible amount of stress and strain on the athlete’s body resulting in unwanted physiological responses and health problems (slow recovery, fatigue, increased risk of injury, etc).
I'm not saying every Kenyan distance runner is on the juice but you would have to admit they have a lot of positives which suggests widespread use. We also don't know if any small amount of blood doping was also used in conjunction with these androgen positives that escaped detection. Or...if the athlete figures their VO2max & endurance capacity is high enough and he/she only wants some androgens to aide in strength and recovery, and be at their strongest come race time.
Also, confirmed doper KISORIO has a 2:04:53 marathon. Recall he was popped for steroids and after his ban he appeared on the FB WADA-hacked document in 2016 as "Likely Doping."
There are issues with the Sunday Times results which require care when interpreting. My conclusion was that it was "not a very promising indicator". There is no similar indicator of a whole population for steroids and androgens, so I have to conclude this is just another unsubstantiated myth.
Your alternative unsubstantiated arguments do nothing to advance your previous unsubstantiated proposal that doping "can be" a big part of the fastest marathon performances.
Arguing "use" is missing the point, when the topic is explaining, even partly, outlying performance.
Arguing that blood doping is not as important as steroids is an interesting response that is inconsistent with other myths about the unprecedented power of blood doping in endurance events. If that is what you are really arguing, I'm happy to concede without argument your proposal that blood doping is not a "big part" of the fastest marathon performances.
What is missing from your unknowledgeable response is the population data that compares steroid users in the marathon to non-steroid users.
Note my previous question about the fastest known doped marathon performances would exclude Kisorio's 2:04:53, unless we know his 2:04:53 was a DIRTY performance. This "can be" a CLEAN performance. He also took third behind two performances which "can be" CLEAN. But even dirty, 2:04:53 makes the point, ranking as only 85th fastest performance, rather than an outlier.
Armstronglivs wrote:
It will play the same role as it does in any other sport. Marathon runners - who also typically compete in shorter events - as Paula did - are not in an ethical class apart from other sports competitors. If there is doping in curling, championships darts and chess there will also be doping in any running event, that includes the marathon.
This response is unsurprisingly non-committal. "The same role" "can be" everything, or "can be" nothing.
I was not talking about "existence" or "ethics" but knowledgeable explanations for outlying performances.
rekrunner wrote:
There are issues with the Sunday Times results which require care when interpreting. My conclusion was that it was "not a very promising indicator". There is no similar indicator of a whole population for steroids and androgens, so I have to conclude this is just another unsubstantiated myth.
Your alternative unsubstantiated arguments do nothing to advance your previous unsubstantiated proposal that doping "can be" a big part of the fastest marathon performances.
Arguing "use" is missing the point, when the topic is explaining, even partly, outlying performance.
Arguing that blood doping is not as important as steroids is an interesting response that is inconsistent with other myths about the unprecedented power of blood doping in endurance events. If that is what you are really arguing, I'm happy to concede without argument your proposal that blood doping is not a "big part" of the fastest marathon performances.
What is missing from your unknowledgeable response is the population data that compares steroid users in the marathon to non-steroid users.
Note my previous question about the fastest known doped marathon performances would exclude Kisorio's 2:04:53, unless we know his 2:04:53 was a DIRTY performance. This "can be" a CLEAN performance. He also took third behind two performances which "can be" CLEAN. But even dirty, 2:04:53 makes the point, ranking as only 85th fastest performance, rather than an outlier.
Geez...you're so incredulous with everything I say that's it's getting to the point of refraining from responding to your posts anymore and just let you babble on.
I'm not arguing that blood doping is not as important as androgens. You're the one that has constantly pointed out that there many more androgen positives than EPO positives with Kenyans (and Canova has emphasized this as well). Therefore, if you're not suggesting that androgen use is more prevalent than blood doping with the Kenyans - then what are you trying to convey?
My point on the androgen use with marathoners is to explain why they would be using it, i.e., what benefit would they be getting in an endurance event from typically a strength & muscle building drug. A few months ago at the gym, I was talking with an acquaintance of mine (non-runner) who wondered why a distance runner would take an anabolic steroid that would bulk him up like a bodybuilder. After explaining why (low dose used for strength & recovery, etc.) he said he had no idea since most at the elite level look so skinny & small.
Furthermore, if a distance runner tests positive for an androgen it doesn't automatically rule out they weren't also blood doping and vice versa. The popular stack with dopers is the EPO - androgen and/or HGH combo. We know this from all the doping ring raids invoving distance runners & endurance athletes where the substances confiscated were EPO, anabolic steroids, testosterone, HGH and corticosteroids. For example, at Aden's altitude camp in Sabella pre-packaged EPO syringes and anabolic steroids were confiscated. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this is the stack Aden was using with his athletes (if he was just going to go with the EPO then why bring the steroids and vice versa?).
And getting back to Kisorio - he tested positive for the steroid Norandrosterone in 2012 and after his ban, he appears on the FB WADA-hacked documents as "Likely Doping" with specific notes to test for an ESA 4-6 weeks before competition. This suggests to me he was using both roids & blood doping in 2012 but only tested positive for the roids, and in 2016 his blood values got a little high pushing into the "Likely Doping" category. Others may see it differently thinking he only used roids at the time of his bust and switched to blood doping after his ban. Nonetheless, I think he's a career doper.
An interview with one your favorite coaches who you have defended vehemently over his doping bust, states this in an interview he gave to Sweatelite:
"Alberto Salazar: Locating the Line Between Acceptable Performance Enhancement and Cheating."
https://www.sweatelite.co/alberto-salazar-locating-line-acceptable-performance-enhancement-cheating/"I believe that it is currently difficult to be among the top 5 in the world in any of the distance events without using EPO or Human Growth Hormone. While some of the top athletes may be clean, so many athletes are running so fast that their performances are suspect. This is compounded for me by the fact that the times these athletes are running just happen to coincide exactly with what top exercise physiologists have calculated taking EPO would produce."
Interestingly, he says EPO...or...HGH. He also credits excercise physiologists for their accurate calculations of the fast times EPO would produce with world-class elites (something you've always dismissed as just an opinion and not to be extrapolated to elites. Lol).
There you go - from your idol: EPO or HGH produces very fast times with dopers (bookmark that link and don't try to tell us in future debates that there are no elite coaches who don't know the power of doping with world class athletes).
EPO and HGH? Interestingly, the same coach used testosterone both as athlete and coach. Drug cheats out!
He also stated that doping decreases the marathon time by 2 minutes. Other experts said 3 - 4%. Small or big? I guess all is relative.