The Wizard JS wrote:
Of course 50-55 mpw is enough to reach your optimum marathon capacity. I have coached very good long distance results on this kind of low mileage and 2-3 workouts per week.
What are those 2-3 workouts?
The Wizard JS wrote:
Of course 50-55 mpw is enough to reach your optimum marathon capacity. I have coached very good long distance results on this kind of low mileage and 2-3 workouts per week.
What are those 2-3 workouts?
Leave it out. You can’t. Nobody runs a good marathon of low mileage. Lots of definitions of the word ‘good’ but I thought the wonderful JS’s would be more ambitious.
What's the best way to structure a week for the marathon then? Let's say you're doing 1 tempo and 1 LR as Two Fiddy recommends (hypothetical 55mi week) - does the below seem reasonable to balance volume/quality?
M - 6 easy
T - 6 easy
W- 10 tempo
Th - 6 easy
F - 6 easy
Sat - 15 long run
Sun - 6 easy
I don't think I said 55 per week even hypothetically.
I'd say this is the aim/goal. Depending on where you are you may need to spend a bit of time building up to this but here goes:
M: 6 easy am/ 4 easy pm = 10 miles
T: 2 mile warm up, 6 mile tempo 2 mile cool down = 10 miles
W: 6 easy am/ 4 easy pm = 10 miles
T: 6 easy recovery jog/ pm rest = 6 miles
F: 2 mile warm up 6 miles worth of reps 2 miles cool down = 10 miles
S: 6 easy am/ 4 easy pm = 10 miles
S: long run starting at 90 mins and building up to 120 mins.
Total approx = 70 miles
Now that in my opinion is pretty much year round training for a decent runner. As the goal marathon race gets closer I'd probably advise the long run be closer to 2 hours most weeks and some of that run be around marathon pace or slightly slower. I wouldn't recommend it just being 2 hours time on feet every week.
I'd also suggest, nearer the goal race that you include a second mid week long run over one of the easy doubles. maybe an 80-90 minute run instead of 2 easy runs totalling 10 miles. AND finally, you could probably ditch the 6 mile tempo OR the 6 miles worth of reps in favour of a MP session. That could be included in either the mid week long run or the Sunday long run.
Bottom line. Year round: 2 sessions per week and a long run time on feet. Then specific block, 1 session per week + marathon pace/quality long run (being the second session.)
Get that structure in place and over time you can add volume/quality so that you're doing 10 good hours every week. If it's 100mpw great, if not, it probably will be one day.
This is pretty much top tier advice. I agree 100%.
do you even run bro wrote:
Leave it out. You can’t. Nobody runs a good marathon of low mileage. Lots of definitions of the word ‘good’ but I thought the wonderful JS’s would be more ambitious.
I myself ran 2:22 on just 50-55 mpw and a lot of runners runs faster than that on just the same mileage.
Awesome, and you're right the 55 was my number not yours.
In the specific block which day would your session be? Just wondering if it's better to schedule more days of recovery after a LR or a session.
asdfdsasdfdsa wrote:
The Wizard JS wrote:
Of course 50-55 mpw is enough to reach your optimum marathon capacity. I have coached very good long distance results on this kind of low mileage and 2-3 workouts per week.
What are those 2-3 workouts?
One 20 x 400m at 5 k race pace and rest walking easy back to 120 bpm . One LT -interval to a total of 10-16 k and for the marathon one specific long run of 90 min - 2 hours 40 min with a fast finish at LT-pace and in intervals or sustained for the last 10-40 min .
any coach's here? wrote:
What's the best way to structure a week for the marathon then? Let's say you're doing 1 tempo and 1 LR as Two Fiddy recommends (hypothetical 55mi week) - does the below seem reasonable to balance volume/quality?
M - 6 easy
T - 6 easy
W- 10 tempo
Th - 6 easy
F - 6 easy
Sat - 15 long run
Sun - 6 easy
I think you would be better off doing 1 12 mile run and taking a day off.... Personally I would be doinng your tempo on Monday and then again on Wednesday. Seriously if it takes you more than 48 hours to recover, you are either pushing 50 or running them too hard.
Two Fiddy Guy wrote:
'good enough goal' doesn't register with me. try your best and reach your potential. At least aimed at people on these boards. I'd say most want to be the best they can be. granted some can't commit due to work/family but even then I think that's a cop out.
Can you get up an hour earlier to get a session in? Can you get a run in on your lunch break? Can you do that extra 30 mins before the kids get home from school? All harmless questions but 99% of people who really want to do their absolute best, will find a way. If they don't, they'll find an excuse and say 'being 10 mins quicker isn't worth the commitment' - nonsense!
If you want to be the best your running workouts so the whole question is mute. Now if your best is running 60mpw with 3 workouts or running 90mpw with 2 more moderate ones? That is a tough question to answer.
trollism wrote:
do you even run bro wrote:
Marathon runners. If you’re only running 50-60 miles per week, should you do workouts? Or is the aerobic efficiency built purely off higher mileage.
Depends if your 'easy mileage' is this ridiculous jogging at 2-3+ minutes per mile slower than race pace that people on the site seem to swear by.
You'll get nowhere near what you're capable of if all you're doing is plodding every day.
Who's a more reliable source for training info some nobody on Letsrun or actual high level runners? I know plenty of pros that probably run their easy runs slower than you yet they are lapping you easily in the early stages of a track race.
fast enough to run wrote:
I jogged a marathon a few years ago in 2:50 with a friend. I was running only 40 MPW at 6:45 pace with a long run of 13 miles. I was sore for a few days but the race was easy. You don't need workouts to run your 2:55.
Do everyone can do exactly the same time off the same training!
Just speaking from my own experience I spent several years just running mileage (no workouts) trying to break 3 hours in the marathon. I got faster but at a certain, frustrating, point I plateaued. Couldn't get any faster. Then a friend got me into running track races again -- short ones like 1500m. The next marathon I ran with only 3 long runs marathon "training" I ran 2:53, a 13 minute PR. So yeah, for me workouts were huge, like doing speedwork before a big race after just working on strength. Except for me the strength part lasted years running 50-70 miles a week with the occasional road race thrown in.
Yep. Waiting for someone to post what I was thinking. I’m fine with the consistent BQs on less than 30 miles/week. Still have plenty of time for workouts, my hot spouse, and fulltime job.
Swim Bike Run wrote:
If anything, the less milage you run, workouts matter more as you need each mile to give you as much return as possible. This board has an obsession with high volume training and intervals never exceeding race pace. Reality is, the higher we can move the AT, the better you get at using lactate, the more efficient you will be as a runner.
We can either push from below or pull from above. Both methods work in conjunction with one another. We need to pull the AT up by doing intervals at slightly faster than AT and we need to push from below in longer steady state at sustainable pace to become more efficient at holding the sub threshold percentage.
The first response in this thread that actually gets the picture.
I think Kofuzi's recent terrible mile time solves this thread. More than 60 miles per week of easy running, but struggles to run a downhill sub 6...
salazaurus wrote:
Swim Bike Run wrote:
If anything, the less milage you run, workouts matter more as you need each mile to give you as much return as possible. This board has an obsession with high volume training and intervals never exceeding race pace. Reality is, the higher we can move the AT, the better you get at using lactate, the more efficient you will be as a runner.
We can either push from below or pull from above. Both methods work in conjunction with one another. We need to pull the AT up by doing intervals at slightly faster than AT and we need to push from below in longer steady state at sustainable pace to become more efficient at holding the sub threshold percentage.
The first response in this thread that actually gets the picture.
Quite. Also, everyone seems allergic to periodization. How about we do a base block with just mileage, a speed block, a tempo block, and then a specific block, instead of repeating the same week over and over?
As far as the OP’s question, it’s bonkers to think that it’s “not worth it” to do workouts at really any mileage. If you ever work with recreational joggers (i.e. folks who just want to finish a half or a marathon), none of them ever do workouts, just mileage, and it’s the number one reason they struggle. It’s amazing what a difference getting a 20 mile-per-week half marathoner to do one weekly workout can make. Mileage does a lot, but it doesn’t magically improve your lactate threshold or your muscular endurance at race pace.
A 5:38 mile at that age actually sounds more impressive than a 16 flat 5 k in your prime.
You could add workouts to longer sessions e.g. run 3 miles easy then 3x2 miles (maybe 5 mins rest) at threshold pace, then a couple of easy miles to cool down. That can give you a 12-13 mile session with quality.
I wouldn't do that for speed sessions but you can afford one day of high quality, low mileage in your schedule.
This hits the nail on the head. Now is the best time we've ever had to build a great level of base fitness. No races means you can try a few different things and figure out what's best for you.
I do agree with what the OP is suggesting to an extent. A lot of runner would benefit from more base miles before adding their tough workouts but just running easy mileage for weeks on end will become a bit stale.
If you're a low mileage MARATHON Runner (higher intensity/lower volume can be great for the shorter distances) why not give yourself 10-12 weeks of steady mileage increase to get you up to more mileage than you've coped with in the past. Do strides 2-3 times a week concentrating on good form and being relaxed over all out speed - these are not sprints. And do 1 tempo run that is slower and more comfortable than what you usually do in this phase. Set yourself a time trial at the end of the 10-12 weeks. 5km or 10km i'd recommend as it's mentally less challenging and see where you're at. Then set your paces for workouts based on your TT effort for a few weeks. Repeat the cycle as necessary and if there's a race lined up soon, work back off that date with a similar cycle.
TLDR: Do 12 weeks base, 8 weeks quality, 2 week taper, then race! Simple.