CONVINCE ME I'M WRONG: People struggle with mileage because they go too fast on easy days

This thread has me thinking.

Maybe the rules for elites, only apply to elites. They have a sufficient aerobic engine to run their easy runs WAY slower than their hard stuff, and still be running 7:30 pace getting a decent muscular effort going.

What if this just doesn't apply to the aerobically untalented? In order to work at the same % of max intensity as elites, people with weak aerobic engines have to slow down so much that their form goes to sh!t, and the forces of each stride are so ridiculously low that their muscles are barely working.

Maybe there's just no good way to translate training techniques between an elite and a hobbyjogger, when one person takes twice as long as another to complete a given race difference. Maybe slow@sses like me should stop looking to the elites for advice that doesn't apply, and just see what works for me.

You're wrong simply because people are different.

Some people struggle with high mileage for the same reason others struggle to dunk a basketball.

Not everyone can do both or either.

utah_runner wrote:

I'm just saying when people begin to switch to higher mileages, it's a lot easier than most people make it out to be. I'm sure once I get more accustomed to it, that the pace of my easy days will gradually become faster as well.

I think there are just so many posts on letsrun about people taking painstaking efforts to raise their weekly average mileage by like 5-10 miles at time, when that doesn't seem to really be necessary during a building phase if you just take things slow.

Yeah, they must be running their easy days too fast, because that's what you were doing, right?

What if someone is already running easy days very slow at the current level? Go even slower to increase their mileage?

Easy runs can be all sorts of paces. Sometimes you can (and should) get rolling pretty well on an easy day. Sometimes you will feel really bad and run slow on an easy day. In some cycles of training many/most daily easy runs might be steady solid aerobic work (MP + 60-90.)

Two dogmata appear over and over on this board:

1) Good training involves going really slow on easy days.

2) It is necessary to run super-slow on easy days to run mileage.

As in all dogma, there is some truth here. But not enough.

I think its fair to say what applies to elites should not apply to everyone. Elites have a higher initial basepoint for what is easy pace and generally much better natural recovery ability. Elites natural recovery ability to get back from hard workout and lots of running is not normal when compared to even your normal talented runners. There are tons of talented runners who wash out or stop developing solely because they cannot handle increasing workload without breaking down or getting injured.

That being said I don't think there is a one shoe fits all as far as recovery for elites. Some go faster than others. But that being said I do not know many who run slower than 7 min pace. I've heard some of the East Africans do but the ones I've run with generally move it up to around 7 min pace or faster. Maybe that is because they were brought up in the American system.

Agreed, semi experienced runners acquire more mileage. I run 3 times a week with SportMe Marathon Trainer and monitoring my progress made me a less anxious and more self confident person. It's amazing what running can do for you!

The whole Tinman Elite do their easy runs around 7:15-7:30 pace, on average (on altitude, but not super high, just Boulder). Drew Hunter never ran faster than 7:15-7:30 in HS (on sea level) and ran 13 min 5k's and multiple sub 4 miles off that.

Not every elite is a Solinsky who rarely ran slower than 6 min pace even in HS, or an El Guerrouj who ran at MP (2 mmol lactate) or in other words - 5:00-5:10 pace - between each hard workout.

You will find examples in both camps! Also East Africans usually cause confusion, because they would do a morning SHAKEOUT that's purely for blood flow and recovery at 9 min/mile pace, but then have a faster easy run later in the day, often progressive and can get VERY fast at the end.

Also, Elites are/become elites because they have TALENT and not because they run their easy days at 6 min/mile, 6:45/mile or 7:30/mile.

The average male elite has UNTRAINED a VO2MAX of ~70 (ml/kg body weight)! With training, the average range of elite runners is around 80, give or take a few. With that VO2MAX, the majority of training programs that don't injure them or overtrain them will make them fast. Drew Hunter would have been a sub 4 miler / sub 13:30 5k guy regardless of doing Tinman training at 7:30/mi on easy days or Salazar training with 6-6:15/mi on easy days. Because he has the high VO2MAX!

But running at 7:30/mi was a lot safer for him than running 6:10/mi every day, so in general I'm more of a fan for easy runs, especially for still developing runners. Keep the ball rolling!

I believe it is the most common reason, but not the only reason. Other possible causes or contributing causes, for example, could be inadequate sleep, dehydration (inadequate fluid replacement) and other nutritional issues, low bone density, musculoskeletal imbalances, and others.

Maybe they run their hard days too hard.

None of you know better than Salazar, he has coached Marathon winners, Olympic Gold Medallists etc. His answer was 1:30 per mile slower than 5k pace for easy runs. Why are you even debating it further.

cheaterfly wrote:

None of you know better than Salazar, he has coached Marathon winners, Olympic Gold Medallists etc. His answer was 1:30 per mile slower than 5k pace for easy runs. Why are you even debating it further.

This is daft - so the slower you are, the closer your easy run pace should be to your 'race' pace? As a percentage difference 1:30 per mile for a 5min/ mile runner is loads easier that 1:30 per mile for a 10min/ mile runner. This is why slower runners shouldn't be listening to elite coaches.

Easy isn't an arbitrary number - it's how hard your body is working and varies day to day. Use perceived effort, the ability to have a conversation while running, heart rate, counting breaths or whatever, but don't run to a magic number because someone who once coached fast people says so

All this talk about paces is stupid. If you are not traning according to heart rate and lactate acid you are wasting your time. Sure some might get good resulta training suboptimally but that doesn't change the optimal scientific approach.

Grassrunner wrote:

Maybe they run their hard days too hard.

That's a valid reason.

Or they have too many hard days per week.

Or run too hard in a base phase.

Or don't eat right in recovery meals after hard workouts.

Yes it should be closer as you get slower. That is because the body propels itself in a similar manner regardless of how fast you are. Running a 15 minute mile feels the same for a 13 minute 5k runner as a 15 minute 5k runner or a 20 minute 5k runner. Ask any 35 minute 5k runner how fast they do their easy runs and they will look at you like you are crazy. They run the same pace in a race as in a workout. I actually believe that the faster you are, the further you should be from race pace on easy days.

OP

Your thoughts are accurate, but not complete. you can not just say that is the one and only reason for LDR struggles. For some, it's not enough miles. And, for others, it's a lack of workouts. Still others, it's lack of stretching. And, your premise does not apply to those fortunate people, who have been able to run for 30+ years with little down time.

always a loser wrote:

Running a 15 minute mile feels the same for a 13 minute 5k runner as a 15 minute 5k runner or a 20 minute 5k runner.

If I understand the point you are trying to make, I don't agree with your conclusion (although there may be some truth in your example to this because a 15 minute mile would be inefficient for runners at these fitness levels (i.e., might feel easier to walk).

Easy pace should correlate to a heart rate range based on each individual runner's level of fitness -- as should race pace. For example, the heart rate of a 13:00 5k runner running at 9:00 mile pace would be much lower than the heart rate of a 20:00 5k runner running at 9:00 mile pace.

I don't think you can take Salazar's advice at face value. For one thing, I remember them doing a big portion of their mileage on the AlterG. That's not the same as running outside, and probably allowed them to push the pace more than a normal runner could. Then there are all the interventions they were using to improve performance/prevent overtraining (thyroid, asthma meds, nutrient IVs, constant naps) which you aren't doing.

But more importantly, using a straight number is the wrong way to adjust pace -- use percentage. So for Rupp, 1:30 above 5k pace is about 36% slower than 5k pace. For a 15:30 runner, the equivalent would be ~6:40/mile, which is manageable if hard, instead of 6:29, which would probably break a 15:30 guy.

Primo Numero Uno wrote:

That being said I don't think there is a one shoe fits all as far as recovery for elites. Some go faster than others. But that being said I do not know many who run slower than 7 min pace. I've heard some of the East Africans do but the ones I've run with generally move it up to around 7 min pace or faster. Maybe that is because they were brought up in the American system.

There are gobs of middle and long distance runners logging easy days in the mid and sometimes even high 7s