Now that they are all retired, who had the better career - Dathan Ritz, Alan Webb or Ryan Hall?

Why are Manzano and Ryun mentioned here? They're great but let's keep this thread to the topic: Hall, Ritz, and Webb.

I pick Ritz b/c he's had most consistent career - best at every level nationally, competitive even if never won internationally, had the longest career, had a couple American records, and has the greatest range. There was a time when Dathan was top #1-5 all time US in every major run track/road distance from 2mile to marathon besides sc (he's been pushed back a bit now in 10K after, but is still top 10).

Viva Zapatos wrote:

theweatherman1212 wrote:

Leo Manzano stopped being an American runner to me the moment he waved around a Mexican flag after winning Olympic silver. This is about AMERICAN runners only.

Mexico is in North America.

Cool man, when people say America, they totally mean Mexico and Canada too.

If Ritz or Webb had waved a German or England flag after a race they medaled in, I'd be kicking out of this discussion on AMERICAN runners too.

Not a lot of people realize that there was this let’s run thread about a kid named Donovan brazier and I think he beats all of them

According to Wikipedia, "Alan Webb (born January 13, 1983, in Ann Arbor, Michigan) is an American former track and field athlete and former triathlete. He holds the American national record in the mile, with a time of 3 minutes 46.91 seconds. Webb represented the United States at the 2004 Summer Olympics in the men's 1500-meters race. He competed professionally for Nike until the end of 2013. He retired after the 2014 Millrose Games to focus on training for the triathlon. He currently serves as the Assistant coach at the University of Arkansas Little Rock Cross Country and track and field teams.

Contents

1 Running career

1.1 High school

1.2 Collegiate

1.3 Post-collegiate/professional

2 Coach

3 Personal

4 Select races by event

5 Personal records

5.1 Outdoors

5.2 Indoors

5.3 Cross country

6 See also

7 References

8 Further reading

9 External links

Running career

High school

Webb attended South Lakes High School in Reston, Virginia. In 1999, he broke Jim Ryun's national sophomore mile record of 4:07.8 by running 4:06.94. During the fall season of his senior year, Webb placed second at the 2000 Foot Locker Cross Country Championships behind Dathan Ritzenhein. At the New Balance Games in January 2001, Webb's mile time of 3:59.86 at New York City’s Armory made him the first American high schooler ever to run a sub-four minute mile indoors. Webb's time broke the previous American indoor high school record of Thom Hunt — a 4:02.7 — as well as Hunt's indoor HS AR in the 1500 m (3:46.6) as Webb came through the 1500 mark in 3:43.27. Webb's record was surpassed fifteen years later by Andrew Hunter from Loudoun Valley High School in Virginia with a time of 3:58.25 set on the same track. Four months later, at the age of 18 years, 4 months, and 14 days, on May 27, 2001 at the Prefontaine Classic, Webb ran a mile in 3:53.43 to shatter Ryun's 36-year-old national high school record of 3:55.3, which placed him first on the list of high school students who have run a four minute mile. En route Webb passed the 1500 mark in 3:38.26 to take down Ryun's 37-year-old high school AR of 3:39.0 set in 1964. He followed up his run at Prefontaine by winning the Virginia State High School 800 m title in 1:47.74 to become the fourth-fastest high schooler ever at that distance. He was "High School Athlete of the Year" in 2001.[2]

Collegiate

Following his high school achievements, Webb went on to run both cross country and track for the University of Michigan. During the fall cross country season, he won several meets including the Wolverine Interregional and the Big Ten Championships (both 8 kilometer races) in times of 25:12 and 23:19.9, respectively. After claiming runner-up at the NCAA Great Lakes Regional to Boaz Cheboiywo, he finished in eleventh place at the NCAA Championships with a time of 29:38 for the 10 kilometer race to earn All-American honors. After redshirting the indoor track season, he won the Big Ten championship in the 1500 m run during the outdoor season, clocking a time of 3:49.27 to win the title. Webb competed in this race at the NCAA Outdoor Track and Field Championships a few weeks later, finishing in fourth place with a time of 3:43.23. Shortly after the completion of the outdoor season, Webb decided to leave the university to turn professional and return to his high school coach and mentor Scott Raczko. He continued his collegiate education at George Mason University.

Post-collegiate/professional

Alan Webb at the 2006 Prefontaine Classic

Since turning professional in 2002, Webb has competed for Nike. In 2004 he became an Olympian by winning the 1500 m in the U.S. Olympic Trials. He was later eliminated in the first round of Olympic competition in Athens. In 2005, he won another national title at 1500 m, and made it to the Finals of the World Championships in Helsinki in that event. He also set personal records at every distance from the 1500 to the 5000 m, setting the American record at 2 miles along the way.

In 2007, Webb once again won the national championship in the 1500 m run, surging past Bernard Lagat in the final 50 meters for the title. He then finished 8th in the final of the 1500 m at the World Championships in Osaka, Japan. On July 6, 2007 Webb won the IAAF Golden League meet 1500 m race in Paris in a lifetime best of 3:30.54, third fastest on the American list. On July 21, 2007, at a meet in Brasschaat, Belgium, Webb broke the American record in the mile. His time of 3:46.91 bested the 25-year-old record of 3:47.69 run by Steve Scott. He ended the year with a victory in the New York Fifth Avenue Mile.[3]

On July 6, 2008, Webb failed to qualify for the Beijing Olympics in the 1500 m after finishing 5th in the US Olympic Trials in Eugene, Oregon with a time of 3:41.62.

After many disappointing results since breaking the American mile record, Webb decided in August 2009 to move to Portland, Oregon, to train with coach Alberto Salazar.[4] At the time, Salazar already coached Kara Goucher, Galen Rupp, Amy Yoder Begley, and Dathan Ritzenhein, and Webb was his first 1500 m runner.[5] In March 2011, Webb decided to leave Salazar on amicable terms.[6]

In 2010, he underwent surgery for an Achilles tendon injury and returned at the Fifth Avenue Mile in September, finishing in fourth behind defending champion Andrew Baddeley.[7]

After his split with coach Alberto Salazar, Webb decided to be coached closer to home under the University of Virginia's Jason Vigilante.[]

Webb returned to Portland to join Jerry Schumacher’s group and was focused on 5000 m & 10,000 m, and eventually the marathon.[8]

Webb has announced his retirement from track running following the 2014 Millrose Games Wannamaker Mile on February 15, 2014.[9]

Coach

In 2013, Webb began as a volunteer assistant coach at Portland State University for cross country.[10] In July 2019, Webb became an assistant cross country coach and distance coach at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock.[11]

Personal

Alan Webb married Julia Rudd in October 2010, who also enjoys running and is an assistant coach for a high school cross country team.[12] A convert to Catholicism and LIFE Runners member,[13] Alan and Julia have three daughters, Joanie, Paula and Gabriella (Gabby).[14][15][16]

Select races by event

800 m

Competition Result Time Location Date

Virginia High School State Championship 1 1:47.74[17] Newport News, Virginia 2000-06-01

Seville Round B 1 1:46.53 Seville, Spain 2004-06-05

Grand Prix 2 1:45.80 Malmö, Sweden 2007-07-03

KBC Night of Athletics 1 1:43.84 Heusden, Belgium 2007-07-28

Meeting Citta Di Padova 8 1:48.34 Padua, Italy 2010-09-03

1500 m

Competition Result Time Location Date

Prefontaine Classic 2 3:38.26[18] Eugene, Oregon 2001-07-18

Olympic Trials Finals 1 3:36.13 Sacramento, California 2004-07-18

Olympic Qualifying Round 1 9 3:41.25 Athens, Greece 2004-08-20

USATF Outdoor Championships 1 3:41.97 Carson, California 2005-06-25

World Track and Field Championships 9 3:41.04 Helsinki, Finland 2005-08-10

Rieti 3 3:32:52 Rieti, Italy 2005-08-28

USATF Outdoor Championships 1 3:34.82 Indianapolis, Indiana 2007-06-24

Meeting Gaz de France Paris St. Denis 1 3:30.54 Paris, France 2007-07-06

Olympic Trials Finals 5 3:41.62 Eugene, Oregon 2008-07-06

Notturna di Milano 5 3:36.21 Milan, Italy 2010-09-09

Melbourne Track Classic 3 3:37.82 Melbourne, Australia 2011-03-03

Oxy Invitational 7 3:37.26 Los Angeles, California 2012-05-18

Prefontaine Classic 10 3:45.59 Eugene, Oregon 2013-05-31

American Milers Club High Performance Series Meet #3 10 3:42.88 Indianapolis, Indiana 2013-06-15

Mile

Competition Result Time Location Date

Nike Prefontaine Classic 1 3:50.83 Eugene, Oregon 2004-06-19

Aviva London Grand Prix 4 3:50.73 London, United Kingdom 2004-07-30

Bislett Games 4 3:48.92 Oslo, Norway 2005-07-29

Prefontaine Classic 11 4:00.87 Eugene, Oregon 2006-05-28

Boston Indoor Games (Indoors) 1 3:55.18 Boston, Massachusetts 2007-01-27

Drake Relays 1 3:51.71 Des Moines, Iowa 2007-04-28

Atletiek Vlaanderen 1 3:46.91 Brasschaat, Belgium 2007-07-21

Nike Prefontaine Classic 10 3:55.99 Eugene, Oregon 2009-06-07

Prefontaine Classic 11 3:59.47 Eugene, Oregon 2012-06-02

3000 m

Competition Result Time Location Date

Nike Prefontaine Classic 3 7:39.28 (en route) Eugene, Oregon 2005-06-04

2 Mile

Competition Result Time Location Date

Nike Prefontaine Classic 2 8:11.48 Eugene, Oregon 2005-06-04

Adidas Track Classic 6 8:33.92 Carson, California 2006-05-21

Prefontaine Classic 9 8:23.97 Eugene, Oregon 2007-06-10

5000 m

Competition Result Time Location Date

Penn Relays 1 13:46.31 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 2004-04-29

Penn Relays 1 13:30.25 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 2005-04-28

Berlin Golden League 8 13:10.86 Berlin, Germany 2005-09-04

Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 21 13:37.68 Palo Alto, California 2013-04-28

10000 m

Competition Result Time Location Date

Payton Jordan Cardinal Invitational 1 27:34.72 Palo Alto, California 2006-04-30

Cross Country

Competition Result Time Distance Location Date

USA Cross Country Championships 8 11:31 4 km Indianapolis, Indiana 2004-02-07

USA Cross Country Championships 4 35:21 12 km Indianapolis, Indiana 2004-02-08

USA Cross Country Championships 6 11:48.3 4 km Vancouver, Washington 2005-02-12

Personal records

Outdoors

Distance Mark Date Location

800 m 1:43.84 2007-07-28 Heusden

Kronenberg Kilometer 2:33.36 2004-05-09 Bayne-Driver Invite, Fredericksburg VA

1,000 m 2:20.32 2005-06-11 New York City

1,500 m 3:30.54 2007-07-06 Paris

Mile 3:46.91 2007-07-21 Brasschaat

3,000 m 7:39.28 2005-06-04 Eugene

2 miles 8:11.48 2005-06-04 Eugene

5,000 m 13:10.86 2005-09-04 Berlin

10,000 m 27:34.72 2006-04-30 Palo Alto

Indoors

Distance Mark Date Location

1,000 m 2:23.68 2001-03-03 VA AAA Championships

1,500 m 3:41.93 2004-02-14 Fayetteville, Arkansas

Mile 3:55.18 2007-01-27 Boston(Boston Indoor Games)

3,000 m 7:47.19 2005-01-28 BU Invitational

2 miles 8:45.19 2001-03-11 Nike Indoor Classic

Cross country

Distance Mark Date Location

4,000 m 11:31 2004-02-07 Indianapolis

10,000 m 29:38[19] 2001-11-19 Greenville

12,000 m 35:21 2004-02-08 Indianapolis"

According to this, I think Hall had the best career

I mean Leo won an Olympic silver medal and there's a halfway decent chance that it gets upgraded to gold (cough cough Makloufi cough cough).

Ricky Bobby would say Leo Manzano didn't win, so he got last, but at least he made the medal stand at a world stage.

Leo was not from the same graduating class as the other three that's why it's a troll to keep bringing him up.

The reason we're talking about "the big three" is that they go all the way back to footlocker in high school.

I'd objectively say Leo had a better career than any of the three, because broke a major barrier with that medal.

It's hard to pick. I think I'd go: 1. Webb 2. Hall 3. Ritz

Ritz's consistency and grit was great to watch as a fan. Just before he broke 13 he was 6th at the World Champs 10k which arguably might have been his best performance. Hard to argue with 3rd in a Diamond League 5k in 12:56 though. Honestly Ritz is probably my favorite of the 3.

The biggest knock on Ritz compared to Webb and Hall is his lack of dominance in the US, particularly in US Championships. Webb and Hall were both US champs and specifically Olympic Trials champs.

2006 US 5k: Lagat, Teg, Ritz

2007 US 10k: Abdi, Rupp, Ritz

2008 Marathon: Hall, then Ritz (He beat Hall at Olympics however)

2009 10k: Rupp, Ritz (He beat Rupp at the World Champs however)

2012 Marathon: Meb, Hall, Abdi, Ritz

2012 10k: Rupp, Teg, Ritz

At 5k I don't think Ritz was as good as Rupp or Tegenkamp, or Lagat (obviously). Leaving Solinsky out because his peak was 2010-2011. I think Ritz would've possibly beaten Solinsky head to head in 2009 although Solinsky was 2nd at US Champs closing in 53 that year. With Teg it's tough given Ritz' PR's are slightly better Ritz 12:56, 27:22 PR vs Teg 12:58, 27:28 however Teg would beat him head to head.

At 10k Rupp was better. In the early years Abdi was also better. In 2012 arguably Teg was better although I think Ritz beat him in the Olympics.

At the marathon Hall and Meb were better/more consistent in their high finishes.

Webb was #1 in the US 2004-2007. Hall was #1 in the marathon 2008-2011, arguably longer. So I give the edge to them over Ritz.

TRACKBOT! Webb vs. Lagat

Okay Ritz cheated so he's immediately out of this right? Or because he's the "all-American white kid from Michigan" he get's a pass somehow?

So really this discussion is around Webb and Hall and the answer is Webb by a considerable margin.

In this episode newly retired Dathan (former American record holder in 5,000 meters in 12:56), Alan (American Record holder in the mile in 3:46), and myself (American record holder in the half marathon in 59:43) remember the good ol' days of our high school class of 2001, in which we were dubbed "the big three" by a writer, forever linking our careers. We recall our first competitions against each other, how we inspired each other, the workout Alan crushed prior to running a national high school record in the mile (3:53...which still stands), how to push through pain, and speculated what it was that led to our respective breakthrough years.

https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/run-free-training/episode-40-the-big-three-zMkPJd2Fc1a/

Episode 40: "The Big Three" come together for a first-ever three-way conversation! (Dathan Ritzenhein, Alan Webb, and myself).

Run Free Training Podcast

They were better at different distances over different terrain, so it’s hard to compare.

Mid Distance 800-Mile: Webb

3k-15k + XC: Ritz

Half-Thon: Hall

Now if you ask me who had the best “career.” It would be Hall because he was a consistent top international marathoner. Ritz and Webb has some splash international performances but overall lacked the consistency to be more than really good national runners.

I think people never mention Ritz' 59:59 half (officially rounded up from 59:59.x, so he technically broke 60) was better than Hall's 59:43 half since they opened tactically slowly and kicked.

Really among the best performances from any of the three, if not the best.

My ranking is Webb, Hall, Ritz. They all had some amazing performances, but for me it’s mostly based on the impact/perceived threat they brought at the world stage.

At his best, Webb was a threat to win any middle distance race against the best runners in the world. While he only had a couple of those “big wins,” it’s undeniable that he was in the highest echelon talent-wise.

Hall could be competitive at the big HM/marathons, but he was not at the same level as Rupp who has shown he can win or take the podium in any major event (including twice at the Olympics). All the competitors know when Rupp is on the start line, and unless Kipchoge is in the race he’s someone the world’s best athletes will be watching and keying off - don’t think that was really the case with Hall.

Ritz had the most durable, consistent career, and showed great range across distances. But he rarely dominated US fields and I doubt the very top international athletes paid a lot of specific attention to him as a threat.

Brofessor wrote:

I think people never mention Ritz' 59:59 half (officially rounded up from 59:59.x, so he technically broke 60) was better than Hall's 59:43 half since they opened tactically slowly and kicked.

Really among the best performances from any of the three, if not the best.

Agreed. I'd say it's a draw between Ritz and Hall at the half. Hall has the edge in the marathon, but not by a huge amount IMO since Ritz finished ahead of Hall in the Olympics and Hall's 2:04:58 was under very favorable conditions. I look at it as 2:06:17 vs. 2:07:47. Hall does have better consistency at the marathon though and more competitive finishes.

However, there is no doubt Ritz is better than Hall from 3K to anything under half marathon, including XC.

To me it's Webb, Ritz and Hall.

under the impression wrote:

Brofessor wrote:

I think people never mention Ritz' 59:59 half (officially rounded up from 59:59.x, so he technically broke 60) was better than Hall's 59:43 half since they opened tactically slowly and kicked.

Really among the best performances from any of the three, if not the best.

Agreed. I'd say it's a draw between Ritz and Hall at the half. Hall has the edge in the marathon, but not by a huge amount IMO since Ritz finished ahead of Hall in the Olympics and Hall's 2:04:58 was under very favorable conditions. I look at it as 2:06:17 vs. 2:07:47. Hall does have better consistency at the marathon though and more competitive finishes.

However, there is no doubt Ritz is better than Hall from 3K to anything under half marathon, including XC.

To me it's Webb, Ritz and Hall.

I agree.

Webb

Ritz

Hall

Y’all didn’t do enough in the marathon to outpace Ritz & Webb on the track.

If we were including Leo, I’d put him 4th despite his 2nd place in the Olympics. He had one good race. Other than that, you couldn’t count on Leo to make it out the heats.