50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

lucKY2b wrote:

...sorry about the last plot; it is now open for viewing.

Incredible. It's like men and women are not even the same species.

In fact if plot 2 and plot 3 are both correct, then plot 1 should do more than squiggle. Shouldn't it have a negative slope?

Alan Bennet wrote:

In fact if plot 2 and plot 3 are both correct, then plot 1 should do more than squiggle. Shouldn't it have a negative slope?

Remember that the times are inversely related to the age-grade factors. Look at plot 4---the one in the follow-up post. Here it is again.

Greetings to all. Here is my last week - Week 9 of 18

Mon: 8 mi easy

Tues: 9 mi easy

Wed: a.m. 8 mi with 3 min hard - 3 min recovery x 5. Just shy of 800 m for my 3 min hard. Nothing impressive for you speedsters that post here, but really good for me. p.m. - 5 mi easy

Thurs: a.m. - 11 mi easy; p.m. 4 mi easy

Fri: 8 mi with 8 x 100 m strides

Sat - 19 mi with 12 at MP (7:45 to 7:50 for first 10 mi then took down to 7:35ish and held for final 2 mi) Again, nothing for you speedsters but good for me!

Sun - super easy 8 miler with hubby/dogs

Total = 79 mi for week

Super tight and back/hamstring hurt - literally waking me up at night. Too many running workouts too close together for me. Will take it easy for the next week or 2 and should resolve.

Can't wait to look at the Age Graded info that was posted - I have always been curious. Best to all and hope cooler temps have officially landed in your neck of the woods.

lucKY2b wrote:

Sorry. The labels on the first plot aren't correct. What I put in the text is correct, these are ratios of time standards, not age-grade factors. They're inversely related to the factors. It's where I'd started, then switched to looking at the factors later on....forgot to change that when I went back and added labels to the plots I'd created earlier.

Oh, you are all in the weeds. First, what you put in the text, numerous times, was "the ratio of age-grade factors to the 5k age-grade factor". Second, I checked the data, and both plot 2 and plot 3 have CORRECT y-axis labels: "AGE-GRADE FACTOR/5K AGE-GRADE FACTOR" and "AGE-GRADE FACTOR/5K FACTOR". It's plot 1 that has the incorrect label, "RATIO OF WOMEN/MEN AGE-GRADE FACTORS", which it clearly is not.

From the "Age factors" tabs:

0.9904 women 35-yo 5k

0.9849 women 35-yo marathon

0.9944 women 35-yo marathon / women 35-yo 5k

0.9788 men 35-yo 5k

1.0000 men 35-yo marathon

1.0217 men 35-yo marathon / men 35-yo 5k

0.7738 women 60-yo 5k

0.7330 women 60-yo marathon

0.9473 women 60-yo marathon /women 60-yo 5k

0.8043 men 60-yo 5k

0.8155 men 60-yo marathon

1.0139 men 60-yo marathon / men 60-yo 5k

0.9849 women 35-yo marathon / men 35-yo marathon

0.9479 women 60-yo marathon / men 60-yo marathon

For those last two, your first plot has 1.1 and 1.2 respectively. I thought it might be a ratio of ratios, but that didn't check out.

I guess I am the one in the weeds, it's plot 1 which has the wrong label, duh. Tab confusion. But anyway the women/men curves (plots 1 and 4) are hiding information.

Plot 2 (which I called abstract) doesn't say much by itself. Put it next to plot 3, though, and it really jumps out, men and women have totally different responses to the distances as they age. Different in kind, not in degree.

I think that I've accurately portrayed, in the text, all the plots that I shared. Labels are correct except that first plot, which I subsequently clarified twice. There is nothing incorrect about what is plotted, the only question is whether any of these are useful comparisons or not. When you form a ratio, the denominator is the comparator. If the comparator is faulty, then the ratio doesn't tell you much. So for Plots 2 and 3, the question is whether the 5K is a good comparator---particularly on the men's side. I had assumed that since the 5K is the most common distance run, that it would have the best data for age-grade standards. That may not be the case, perhaps the HM or the marathon would be a better comparator. So I tried that by doing the same analysis but dividing by the HM age-grade factor, but the same basic bow-tie effect remains, just skewed differently.

My only plausible explanation for the rebounding is that mid-60's is typical retirement age...so those that choose to run after retirement have more time to devote to training....and that they tend to gravitate to the marathon (being the "gold standard" for endurance athletics, and perhaps that there's a higher incidents of injury that dissuades persistent training for shorter, faster distances.) Given the paternal nature of families of that generation (and the fact that women of that generation weren't likely to have been competitive runners in their youth), it shows up in the male side and not so on the female side. With time, the rebound effect for longer distances may show up on both sides.

That's my off-the-cuff guess...full of holes, I'm sure.

OK. My mini-break is over. Gotta get back to work.

Or it could all be just Ed Whitlock, and we can be done with this other speculation. :-P

Interesting reanalysis including proposed 2015 standards (updated just yesterday):

http://www.runscore.com/Alan/AgeGrade.html

I think that I've accurately portrayed, in the text, all the plots that I shared.

Sweet trip to Europe in the rear view mirror now.

Yes we did get to Gimmewald. Came home @ 8#s heavier than pre-journey....not having much luck shedding it.

Currently running about once or twice a week. The rest is farming, wood cutting,and family doings. Did hit 3 good days on the bike back in Sept. Tried a 9 mile hill race 2 weeks ago=84 minutes. Clearly the dots are not connected.

Foster, Turnbull,and so many other Aussie legends. What's in your water?

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Week 176

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Greetings, Grand+ Masters! Still just trudging along trying to build some mileage and regaining some confidence…I’m getting there. Each week I’m feeling ever-so-slightly less discomfort and uncertainty in my abdomen; still not certain about adding core work. It’s been a long road! Managed ~36 miles of running on 5 days. The week’s log looks as such:

Sun: off (but 6+ miles of jog-walking)

Mon: 7.5 w/3.5@6:42 pace

Tue: 6.2 w/3x400 (75,75,79)

Wed: off

Thur: 5.0 moderate (7:31 avg pace, somewhat progressive from 7:50 ->7:10)

Fri: 6.9 , moderate (7:30 pace, pretty steady)

Sat: 10.4 mostly easy w/1.3@~6-minute pace in the middle

Fairly rudderless week of training. Nothing really panned out the way it was intended, but I think I got enough quality miles in anyways. Tuesday’s track workout, for example, was a complete bust. The plan was 12x400 w/200 recovery, but we had an ultra-low turnout for various reasons, and there was one new person who’d never done an interval workout. After quizzing him, it was clear that 5x400 w/ 400 recovery would push him to his limits, so I helped him through it. I ran alongside him in lane 2; he struggled to maintain 1:45 pace. Afterward, I just tried to run 3 hard 400’s with 1-lap recovery to get something out of the trip to the track. The first one felt strong, I still felt pretty good on the second, but about halfway through the third one, I really started to flag. Not much else to say about the week, but I’m glad to once again be running steady 7:30’s without feeling like I’m pushing it.

We’re well into fall racing season, and yet I still haven’t mustered the will to get into a road race. My club is going to the Marshall Marathon in Huntington, WV start of November; I’ve been roped in to this journey, so I guess I’ll sign up to run the HM. I doubt I’ll be able to race it seriously; I’m thinking 7:10 pace would be a major triumph at this point. I might also jump into a 5k next Friday evening…still very much on the fence, though.

Hope you all had a great weeks, and I look forward to reading your reports. Any races?

Quote for this week: "Running should be a lifelong activity. Approach it patiently and intelligently, and it will reward you for a long, long time." -Michael Sargent, M.D.

All the Best!

Looks like you were “trudging” pretty well lucKY, something with a little turnover every time out. I’d bet you are in at least sub 19 5K shape right now, not quite sub 6 pace but getting close.

For my week I felt lucky to get 22 miles in given that I spent two days out of town and drove 400 + miles doing it. I was able to run relatively hard twice with nary a twinge anywhere. It’s not as fast as I’d like but I’ll gladly take it considering how good I feel!

Mon = 3 easy, road and trail

Tue = 4, hard, greenway with 5K@7:36 pace

Wed = 2, road, travel

Thr - 1, road, travel, late night run

Fri = 2, easy, road and trail

Sat = 4, hard, greenway 5K@7:42 pace, very windy

Sun = 6, easy road

Total = 22

Keep it rolling week x week fellas. I've had a big volume big quality week ... and happy about it. Always know when this is true when the grumpy bear comes out ready for bed before 9pm.

Tues - Mile Cut-Down on the track starting at mile 5:55, then 1200-800-600-400-ending with a 34 for 200.

Fri - 5 x mile on grass loop with 400 jog rest interval. Solo effort and albeit flat well groomed ground this was still what I rekon was a 'monter workout' for this here middle distance guy... 6:10-5:55-5:50-6:00-5:48. Grumpy Bear later on.

Hope to see (meet) some of y'all in PA or CO for some XC Champs.

KP

Well, it was a "getting back into it" week for me after my season-end rest week. My schedule: Tuesday: 5x45 seconds @ 70% effort with 45 second rest (I was going on time rather than distance) was very tough. I felt like a warrior, albeit an exhausted one when it was done. Wednesday: 6x80 under 12 seconds with 15 seconds rest. Thursday: 900 stairs. Saturday 6x150 under 21 seconds with walk back for rest (approx. 90 secs). Today, weights.

I just found out 2 out of my 3 races at the NV Sr Olympics are new meet records. It's been a long time since I finished an outdoor season without feeling beat-up and needing to heal various almost-injuries. I'm really enjoying this level of fitness! I'm doing a lot of preventative maintenance (stretching, rolling, adequate rest) in order to carry this into the indoor season. First open indoor meet is 12/6!

Have a great week!

My wife and I wandered into Gimmelwald from Stechelberg on the 4th of Sept. and headed off to Zermatt a week later. Still as beautiful as I remembered. I hope you enjoyed it Bushman.

Mon. 45 min paddle.

Tue. 70 min. 13.5 km run on the flats.

Wed. hilly trail 13 km run in 86 mins. 340 m of elevation.

Thu. 11 km run on hilly golf course in just under the hour.

Fri. 35 min paddle, 40 min mtn bike spin.

Sat. 19.6 km very steep trail run, 880 m of elevation gain, 2 h 17 m.

Sun. 90 min mtn bike ride.

B usy week of mixed night shifts and day and evening shifts. Happy to get some solid kms in. Saturday's 2 hour run was pretty brutal.

I believe the wonderful 70 plus runner Lavinia Petrie won a major masters award recently. She is a phenomomenal runner for her age. A great lady too.

Also the skinny little old bald fella Moneghetti just clocked a sub 70 half at 52/53 or whatever. He also has a recent 31.20ish 10 km time to his name. Goes alright the boy.

Hi All,

I've had an encouraging two weeks of training. Although I'm nowhere near where I was pre-injury, I'm now able to run without pain - I just have lingering tightness that seems to fade away more every day. This was the first week I felt I could push a little without my glutes/hamstring freezing up. I'm really happy to be able to run again and I'm looking forward to getting back to feeling fit.

Last week I ran (jogged) 33.25 miles at an average pace of 9:22 (including w/u). This week, I was able to cover 42 miles at an average pace of 8:59. My normal pace is around 8:15 for distance runs so I've got a long way to go but the trend is positive. Here is my week:

S 5.5 mi easy

M 5.0 mi 8:20,8:31,8:32,8:19

T 5.5 mi easy

W 6.4 mi easy

Th 5.4 mi 8:54, 8:29, 8:10

F 6.6 mi easy

S 7.5 mi 8:38,8:43,8:36

Just being able to be outside in the beautiful fall weather is a gift so remember to run with joy as you train this week!

Staying at 35+ mpw and feeling good. Ran the Wisconsin XC course on Thursday at 7:00 pace for 3.85 miles. This was the 6k and everyone says it is short but I think the mile/k marks are a little off (long) creating a perceived short last 1k/2k split. Our women finished tied for 9th in a field with 22/30 nationally ranked teams. I'll take that! Got in 10 miles this morning at 7:28 pace so I'm progressing and happy with my strength. Going to race 4 miles in two weeks and then a 5 miler on Thanksgiving. More follow up blood checks later this week but I still can't talk the doctors into giving me some EPO...I need that to catch up to KP!

Another 41 miles for me this week with 20x:30hard/:30 easy on Tuesday and 9 miles tempo this morning. The 9 miler was :30/mile faster than a week ago when I still was feeling the effects of my last XC race. This was my second week at 41 miles and it felt a bit better than the week before. I have 4 more weeks to my XC championship and I need to get 3 more solid weeks and a taper in by then.