Would be interesting to see how singles compare to the EIM.
The comparison with EIM has been made before, but the similarities are mostly superficial.
Look at the basic philosophy in a nutshell: The goal of SubT is to improve aerobic fitness by maximizing training load per week, which for time-constrained amateurs targeting 5K-HM races is best accomplished with 3 SubT workouts, a moderate long run, and some very easy runs.
Compare that with EIM: The goal is to develop a reactive stride by doing only workouts that include faster-pace intervals in some form. Easy running is harmful to this process and should be avoided. EIM will work for all athletes, from novice to pro, training for 800m-marathon. If you can't do EIM workouts every day, it's better to cross train.
So yeah, some of the workouts are vaguely similar, but the two approaches are attempting to accomplish entirely different things in completely different ways. And it shows in how SubT thinks easy runs are great, while EIM thinks they're bad. There are only moderate-effort days in EIM but no easy days, while in SubT there are only moderate-effort weeks.
SubT has worked well for me (although I won't have another chance to race for months yet). I gave the EIM a serious try a few years ago and it was a disaster for me.
Thanks for correcting me on EIM. I'll know going forward!
Don’t disagree for more advanced runners but this one is spouting out running advice a 1:58 HM…
I actually agree. Long run, probably 80-90 mins is absolutely plenty to optimise a half, if you are completing it in less time than your long run. If you are 1:15 ish, 75 mins is probably enough. But, a 2 hour HM runner needs to almost treat it like M training.
The huge success of this method for hobby joggers, means this method here, Reddit and Strava has blown up. The big problem seems to be however, people don't understand it . Like, for real. I've seen people quoting sirpoc on stuff the dude ever ever said. Or now there's guys telling 18-20 min 5k runners what they lack is speed. The fact that anyone can even say that shows 1. They haven't used the method themselves or 2. They don't get it. Quite quickly you are just sliding into a Daniel's 2Q plans or the like if you think like that.
I initially thought this idea was difficult to get wrong. But actually, the inherent greed of runners for pushing themselves in training, or the inherent need to look good on Strava workouts etc. is where people are messing up. The basics are the basics, but the complicated stuff is understanding what load is and how it can be quantified in a repeated manner. It was relatively new to me, but I'm glad I took the time to understand what is going on under the hood here.
Without calling anyone out, as I've been in the Strava group , I think there were a couple of guys who maybe didn't go all in on this method, but now have and I'm always looking out for their progress and it's really good to see. But, I think it takes everyone a while to really fully understand what they are doing.
With that, it comes back to who to listen to. The usual suspects from this group I believe are admins of the group? All of who, are the ones I look out for on Strava posts. Sirpoc chirps in plenty and it's always worth listening to what he says along with the others.
I think really it would be great to pin sirpoc down to what he still believes, what holds true from the thread originally etc as I think for someone coming in now, there's a lot of hot air and nonsense that has nothing to do with the method or people are adding stuff in that will distort results, or coming full circle to the point I'm replying to, totally forgetting there's a different between a hobby jogger running 2 hours HM or sirpoc running 1:09.
I actually agree. Long run, probably 80-90 mins is absolutely plenty to optimise a half, if you are completing it in less time than your long run. If you are 1:15 ish, 75 mins is probably enough. But, a 2 hour HM runner needs to almost treat it like M training.
The huge success of this method for hobby joggers, means this method here, Reddit and Strava has blown up. The big problem seems to be however, people don't understand it . Like, for real. I've seen people quoting sirpoc on stuff the dude ever ever said. Or now there's guys telling 18-20 min 5k runners what they lack is speed. The fact that anyone can even say that shows 1. They haven't used the method themselves or 2. They don't get it. Quite quickly you are just sliding into a Daniel's 2Q plans or the like if you think like that.
I initially thought this idea was difficult to get wrong. But actually, the inherent greed of runners for pushing themselves in training, or the inherent need to look good on Strava workouts etc. is where people are messing up. The basics are the basics, but the complicated stuff is understanding what load is and how it can be quantified in a repeated manner. It was relatively new to me, but I'm glad I took the time to understand what is going on under the hood here.
Without calling anyone out, as I've been in the Strava group , I think there were a couple of guys who maybe didn't go all in on this method, but now have and I'm always looking out for their progress and it's really good to see. But, I think it takes everyone a while to really fully understand what they are doing.
With that, it comes back to who to listen to. The usual suspects from this group I believe are admins of the group? All of who, are the ones I look out for on Strava posts. Sirpoc chirps in plenty and it's always worth listening to what he says along with the others.
I think really it would be great to pin sirpoc down to what he still believes, what holds true from the thread originally etc as I think for someone coming in now, there's a lot of hot air and nonsense that has nothing to do with the method or people are adding stuff in that will distort results, or coming full circle to the point I'm replying to, totally forgetting there's a different between a hobby jogger running 2 hours HM or sirpoc running 1:09.
Actually pretty much spot on. Poor @sirpoc84 himself is having to spend a ton of time on the Strava group correcting people's mistakes interpretations. The thing is, he's not even saying you MUST train like this, but pointing out there's a specific way for the most part of you want to be able to do this long term. You have guys basically totally not understanding whatsoever what even paces they should be running. It's kinda wild.
If I was him I would take a podcast invite or write a book himself or something, it's grown so much there probably needs a definitive recap, as I agree there is a wild amount and ton of misinformation. Maybe less on here but Strava, Reddit and other social media is a mess with this NSM buzzword but not even reading the orgins of this thread! There's even a decent amount of folk who still think 18- 22 min runners are lacking speed for the 5k and that's what they are lacking. Which is again pretty wild if you look at how for all the testimonials we have had here + sirpoc ridiculously good progress at 40+ years old, obviously isn't the case. I don't think people are grasping aerobic gains outweigh pretty much anything else, until you get to a certain point. Which the majority of us will never get to.
Actually pretty much spot on. Poor @sirpoc84 himself is having to spend a ton of time on the Strava group correcting people's mistakes interpretations.
It’s elitist and snooty, but honestly I kinda wish there was either an off-shoot of the group or for Strava to introduce filtering/muting.
There’s still some great chat there, mostly from the admins and people that have grasped how simple the approach is and stuck with it (though also some great newbie perspectives).
But mostly it’s becoming polluted with posts and comments from people that don’t know what they’re talking about, or just the same questions asked on repeat about paces and how to add things on top of it.
It’s elitist and snooty, but honestly I kinda wish there was either an off-shoot of the group or for Strava to introduce filtering/muting.
There’s still some great chat there, mostly from the admins and people that have grasped how simple the approach is and stuck with it (though also some great newbie perspectives).
But mostly it’s becoming polluted with posts and comments from people that don’t know what they’re talking about, or just the same questions asked on repeat about paces and how to add things on top of it.
Really agree with this. Unfortunately, this is a by-product with the undoubted huge success of this thread. On here and Strava if you know who is who, it's really easy to look out for the good posters and the ones who clearly have an insanely good grasp of what is actually going on, why this works to the broad extent it does and the finer points.
I think those of us who have followed, copied and trained with success using a lot of the stuff from early on where the thread was smaller, Strava group smaller etc......well we really had it good because there was less nonsense to get through.
On the other hand, I feel guilty for even saying this, as there's an insane amount of free resources on Strava, from sirpoc84, Hard2find and others that 100% by rights should be behind a paywall and likely 99% of others would have done so by now. So when you think of it like that, I feel bad to being picky!
Reminds me the Yogi Berraism “nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.” Hopefully that’s not the end fate of the Strava group. One of the places to get high signal low noise banter is in the comment sections of runs posted by people who know what they’re doing. There’s a nice community of people keeping tabs on and routing for each other.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Reminds me the Yogi Berraism “nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.” Hopefully that’s not the end fate of the Strava group. One of the places to get high signal low noise banter is in the comment sections of runs posted by people who know what they’re doing. There’s a nice community of people keeping tabs on and routing for each other.
What is our definition of knowing what they are doing? Because I would argue a lot have no clue what they are doing and just randomly following.
There was a post recently about when to add in some race pace work or specificity . Despite obviously this being a standard play just about every coach in the history of running, this was almost dismissed. You want to run your best 5k, you better damn make sure you know how to run 5k pace. I would argue this is why a lot of guys are being held back.
Reminds me the Yogi Berraism “nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.” Hopefully that’s not the end fate of the Strava group. One of the places to get high signal low noise banter is in the comment sections of runs posted by people who know what they’re doing. There’s a nice community of people keeping tabs on and routing for each other.
What is our definition of knowing what they are doing? Because I would argue a lot have no clue what they are doing and just randomly following.
There was a post recently about when to add in some race pace work or specificity . Despite obviously this being a standard play just about every coach in the history of running, this was almost dismissed. You want to run your best 5k, you better damn make sure you know how to run 5k pace. I would argue this is why a lot of guys are being held back.
I just mean people who have understood and followed the method for a while. Obviously that poster on specificity (and John Davis from running writings who commented, it’s very cool that he joined the group) is knowledgeable and “knows what he’s doing.” The knowledgeable runners who are providing counter arguments are not the problem.
I have the feeling you guys miss Coggan, lexel and JS with all that complaining about your Strava Group. Nobody cares here about your Strava Group problems.
I just mean people who have understood and followed the method for a while. Obviously that poster on specificity (and John Davis from running writings who commented, it’s very cool that he joined the group) is knowledgeable and “knows what he’s doing.” The knowledgeable runners who are providing counter arguments are not the problem.
The thing is, I don't consider any of these people knowledgeable.
It's literally laughable they think you can get faster in a 5k without vo2 or race pace work. You have guys plodding around in 19-20 min 5ks would be way faster if they took on the advice of guys like John etc.
I just mean people who have understood and followed the method for a while. Obviously that poster on specificity (and John Davis from running writings who commented, it’s very cool that he joined the group) is knowledgeable and “knows what he’s doing.” The knowledgeable runners who are providing counter arguments are not the problem.
The thing is, I don't consider any of these people knowledgeable.
It's literally laughable they think you can get faster in a 5k without vo2 or race pace work. You have guys plodding around in 19-20 min 5ks would be way faster if they took on the advice of guys like John etc.
You´re the one who doesn´t know crap about running training. Do you really think a 20 minute 5k runner would get really fast if he just added Vo2max work? This is all about what gives most bang for the bucks if you are a non elite. Even for a guy like JI race pace training is just the icing on the cake. He would run sub-13 even with just threshold.
I have the feeling you guys miss Coggan, lexel and JS with all that complaining about your Strava Group. Nobody cares here about your Strava Group problems.
Can confirm: we're in advanced talks to have them appear at Summer Slam for a winner take all Troll Match.
The thing is, I don't consider any of these people knowledgeable.
It's literally laughable they think you can get faster in a 5k without vo2 or race pace work. You have guys plodding around in 19-20 min 5ks would be way faster if they took on the advice of guys like John etc.
It's literally wild and laughable to me there are still people who actually think like this. Shows how far behind running coaches are. Improve what you have the ability to improve, on the limited hours a hobby jogger likely has.
Flogging a 19-20 min runner with 5k pace and VO2 max work in the hope they will suddenly miraculously become a sub 18 guy, is literally never going to happen.
Yet systematically building a base that just continues to grow, we have seen time and time again in this thread especially, will probably allow you in the long run to take literal minutes off your PB.
It's more laughable to me that people don't grasp this concept. But I think the running community is engrained in thinking it already knows everything, just because that's what's been done before.
Well I mean if race pace is super crucial, which it isn't, you can easily incorporate 5k pace into this model. Threshold in this sense isn't a given speed as much a state. 20x400m/80-90s might not be one of the standard sessions in this thread, but could certainly contain some (not all) reps at 5k speed. The 45/15s workout done progressively goes quite a bit faster towards the end, down to 1500m pace.
Marathoner here. I'm trying to transition my training to Norwegian singles and I'm wondering if I should do two or three sessions a week. Also wondering about combining a session with the long run.
I've just come off some training that was almost the opposite of this training -- I was doing a hard session only once every 1-2 weeks. Everything else was easy jogging except some strides and hill sprints (these were also infrequent). I think this was the right thing for me at the time in order to build the strength I needed to survive the marathon at the pace that I already had the aerobic capacity to do. But I've got a long time (over 8 months) until my next race so I think it's right to train differently for a while. The point is I'm used to very infrequent workouts so this is a big change.
I'd think 3 sessions is actually easier assuming you aren't overdoing them. But it could go bad really quickly if you are overdoing them. So I'm thinking 3 sessions and very conservative on the paces for 3-4 weeks until I feel really confident I'm not overtraining (also keeping any other training like strength/speed very light until I get this established).
And I like the idea of doing 10min intervals at 30k/MP and having that be part of the long run (having a longer warmup and cooldown than the other sessions). Is that sensible or is there a strong recommendation to have a long run that's pure easy mileage and keep the sessions separate? Is that supposed to be easier?
Reminds me the Yogi Berraism “nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.” Hopefully that’s not the end fate of the Strava group. One of the places to get high signal low noise banter is in the comment sections of runs posted by people who know what they’re doing. There’s a nice community of people keeping tabs on and routing for each other.
You mean like following sirpoopy or Tard2find? All losers who don't know who to train properly. Thread is full of Uber nerds who don't know hard work and scared of running fast.
Reminds me the Yogi Berraism “nobody goes there anymore, it’s too crowded.” Hopefully that’s not the end fate of the Strava group. One of the places to get high signal low noise banter is in the comment sections of runs posted by people who know what they’re doing. There’s a nice community of people keeping tabs on and routing for each other.
You mean like following sirpoopy or Tard2find? All losers who don't know who to train properly. Thread is full of Uber nerds who don't know hard work and scared of running fast.
The thing is, I don't consider any of these people knowledgeable.
It's literally laughable they think you can get faster in a 5k without vo2 or race pace work. You have guys plodding around in 19-20 min 5ks would be way faster if they took on the advice of guys like John etc.
Maybe 19-20 guys. But I think if we talk master runner and anyone 16:30 which I consider good at master age, even these old guys almost all doing 5k pace work to maintain speed. So I agree, maybe hobby joggers no need, but faster national master will need this vo2 stimulus or no way to break 16 for sure.