Third Kenyan runner in 10 days fails doping test

That Occam sure makes a really nice razor.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Yes most of this has been discussed here before but a hematocrit level of 53% is very rare among elite athletes in a natural non-doped population. It would be highly likely this person would have an OFF-SCORE around 120 or higher unless he also has very high RET levels. The mountainous people do have higher Hct but they likely have mediocre stroke volume levels (not trained properly). Interestingly, you were the one on here that argued Hct levels feel as your athletes got in better shape, hence your argument that epo couldn't work on elites. Yet Kwemoi and Moen had high or rising Hct levels last year when doing fantastic times 3:30a, 7:28 & 2:05.

You use the term “normal heat production” as though it is an absolute ceiling. It is not. It is time- and heat-rejection-dependent.

Even if LA produced only normal power, and let’s say for only as long as anybody else due to your mythical thermoregulatory ceiling being THE limiting factor, the question is when was he able to produce it. If EPO aids sub-maximal performance below the max level of heat rejection, more power will be available later in a race like on a final lap, or at certain parts of it like a critical hill climb, you know the CP system.

If at the end, thermoregulation doesn’t matter, performance does not diminish instantaneously with rising local muscular temp. If at a critical point, the advantage gained in a sport like cycling can get the gap and the win, for tactical reasons.

The best is when there is a hill, at the finish. This was LA’s bread and butter. If EPO aids all the prior sub-maximal performance preceding it, it will also have permitted an improved last hill. Also remember that it was the entire team’s sub-maximal performance, not just LA’s.

AGAIN THE ISSUE OF WHETHER EPO IMPROVES DISTANCE PERFORMANCE OF HIGHLY TRAINED ATHLETES IS ONLY A SIDE ISSUE.

I Agree wrote:

m!ndweak wrote:

and this......let me guess rek and ex and renato will have some bullsh*t excuse for this as well

Certainly rekrunner will downplay it probably stating something along the lines that's it's a "logical fallacy" to assume that a refusal actually means the athlete was doping. ? Canova, OTOH, surprises me. I would have thought by now with this rash of top Kenyan doping positives he would be outraged & angered to no end.

Kenyan Athletics is imploding...this is getting ridiculous! See El K's post up thread, with the Bett refusal he's even pissed off and has had enough of this.

well we still never got anything from rosa....you would think the brojos or someone would hassle the f*ck out of that guy when his SHINING STAR kiprop went home devastated (well he was actually home texting $32 for tea, but you know what i mean)

but yes every time a big name goes down, renato makes EXCUSES and bullsh*t, when you would think yes he would and should be PISSED...but instead the only people he gets upset at are me, subway and casual....umm im not in kenya coaching and making up lies that kenyans dont even take asprin, and now big names are dropping for saucing up on EPO....shouldnt he be mad at the coaches and agents and doctors who are pushing this? well again the only way he could be mad is if he was ACTUALLY PRODUCING clean runners. the only coach that has gotten mad and has never been associated with doped runners is brother colm o'connell....rosa pretends to be pissed...but yet somehow renato is chipper and happy? lolz

Well, I'll give you this, you got some balls on you. You get caught stone cold lying for years on end. Rather than admit you've been caught, you make up some cockamamie excuse and double-down on your previous answer. You know it is not true. I know it is not true. States right up at the top that these are your notes. Reflects your English vocabulary and syntax. Just like you never stated Anna Yin was a national team athlete, except you did. You just denied that as a national team coach, running a national team camp, with somebody you called a national team athlete, that you had any responsibility or oversight at all. Yeah, couldn't even get her coach to come to meetings. About the only thing she did was take your blood tests! (Not required, not antidoping, purely for your coaching value). Athlete w/ 53 HCT....hahaha, we can all see what is going on.

Renato Canova wrote:

My dear, this is not something coming from myself.

These are the advices of a doctor in Nederland, after making a complete check-up to Ronald, that had some problem in one hamstring.

This was what the doctor suggested, but I told him to take only Mg in hot water, for avoiding some cramp he had in his hamstrings. Few days later, he had the stress fracture in the 3rd part of the left tibia, that lasted for almost one year (he is again in training from one month only).

Before accusing somebody to be a liar, is better you can know all the reality and think two times before defaming people.

Really, you are a perfect example of person intellectually not honest, when you insist with the fact I had Anna Yin in the Chinese Team selected before Asian Games.

I already explained that, when we started the final training camp in Duoba (2400m) lasting about 2 months with all the National Team, I saw for the first time many of them, since the NATIONAL TEAM that Chinese Federation gave me to coach didn't include ALL the athletes they selected for the Asian Games. Since I had the opportunity to do blood tests for all the athletes every week, I decided to use in order to have more informations about the EVOLUTION of the blood values during a long period, and not only the values BEFORE going altitude and immediately AFTER.

When I had the results of the first blood test, I saw something strange in the data of Anna Yin, NEVER coached by myself (and with a coach who was not interested to stay in the Group), and I asked the Chinese Antidoping Agency to test the athlete with both Urine and Blood, thinking there was the assumption of some drug. This is what happened, what I already explained, and what you refuse to consider, lying when you write and trying to throw mud on my face (something never possible, because who knows and lives athletics, not idiots like you, well know myself, my position and my behavior).

And, for your knowledge, in spite of Hct of 53, the off-score of Ronald Kwemoi was 110, while the off score of the test of Sondre Moen immediately after running 2:05:48 was 84.2.

Renato Canova wrote:

And, for your knowledge, in spite of Hct of 53, the off-score of Ronald Kwemoi was 110, while the off score of the test of Sondre Moen immediately after running 2:05:48 was 84.2.

19 Apr 2017 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.3 - Hct 43.1 - OFF Score 85.1

(10 days after Hannover Marathon in 2:10:07, NR)

8 Aug 2017 (Blood only - Lab in Dresden (GER)) : Hb 15.3 - Hct 45.5 - OFF Score 103

15 Dec 2017 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.8 - Hct 45 - OFF Score 84.2

Marathon 2:05:48 Fukuoka (JPN) 03 DEC 2017

Interestingly, if Moen is clean (I certainly hope so), there is no way Paula is.

But with world-record holding blood-manipulators like Redcliff involved with anti-doping, isn't persecuting Kenyans another form of EPO Cheats Out placard-waving don't-look-at-us distraction?

I love to laugh and laugh hard wrote:

Interestingly, if Moen is clean (I certainly hope so), there is no way Paula is.

Well that is old news. But yes, the more data one sees, the more obvious this becomes. That"s one of the reasons for the anti-transparency policy of the IAAF under Coe.

I love to laugh and laugh hard wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

And, for your knowledge, in spite of Hct of 53, the off-score of Ronald Kwemoi was 110, while the off score of the test of Sondre Moen immediately after running 2:05:48 was 84.2.

19 Apr 2017 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.3 - Hct 43.1 - OFF Score 85.1

(10 days after Hannover Marathon in 2:10:07, NR)

8 Aug 2017 (Blood only - Lab in Dresden (GER)) : Hb 15.3 - Hct 45.5 - OFF Score 103

15 Dec 2017 (Blood and Urine - Lab in Oslo) : Hb 14.8 - Hct 45 - OFF Score 84.2

Marathon 2:05:48 Fukuoka (JPN) 03 DEC 2017

Interestingly, if Moen is clean (I certainly hope so), there is no way Paula is.

So 12 days after, I wouldn't call that immediately.

That's a lotta ifs, none of which make any sense.

Thermoregulation is real, it can't be circumvented with drugs. Yes you can store more water and sodium and potassium and sweat more to improve endurance, but that's easy and the adaption is very rapid, a few weeks at most. You can't just magically oxidise more carbohydrate than normal, which is what everyone believes blood boosting allows. That is not how the human body works. Some phsyiologists know this, but the majority have no idea even though it's basic physiology.

Yes muscle temperature is optimal at a higher range somewhat higher than core temperature. Ideal conditions for a distance runner to run a fast 5000 or 10000 is when the sun has dipped, the wind has dropped and the track is still warm, but the air 3 feet off the ground is cool. This happens on many summer evening in places where the days are warm but the nights are cool. Your legs feel the benefit of the warm air and your torso feels the benefit of the cool air. Try it sometime.

Whether a Tour de France cyclist used rEPO or not, they still had to deal with the varying weather conditions and slow down when it was hot and humid and 5 watts per kilo feels like 6 because blood is diverted to the skin for sweating. So the oxygen uptake is much much less.

rEPO doesn't aid anything in a healthy athlete. It's all a sordid mess of corruption, misinformation and pseudoscience.

It's good that the corruption is being addressed here. In time hopefully the misinformation and pseudoscience will be too?

Give it rest Jon, the science isn't on your side the temperature line is nonsense and you know it.

I think JO is just clowning around with us...he likes to see what kind of rise he gets from other posters. He also seems to fill in on days rek doesn't post. ?

This is a heated debate.

Practical Joker wrote:

I think JO is just clowning around with us...he likes to see what kind of rise he gets from other posters. He also seems to fill in on days rek doesn't post. ?

You gotta admit that those clowns keep [that clown keeps?] all the doping threads alive, as silly as their "arguments" are.

yyy wrote:

This is a heated debate.

Meh...more like an April Fool's debate. ?

So, everyone can develop 450 watts over half an hour? Come on :-)

In the late 80s? In which sport? The basis of my doubt is whether artificially increased Hct and improved endurance capacity from EPO can actually cause better running performances not possible with legal training, such as hi-lo altitude training. I don't believe Prof. Saltin has addressed this topic, but feel free to direct me to some research.

High-Octane Dopers wrote:

Great find there Subway!? This should put the lid on any doubt that the increase in Hct doesn't improve endurance capicity. Imagine increasing Hct by means of rEPO and consequently improving endurance...geez...who would have thought. Lol.

And our esteemed statiscian rekrunner needs to put down his "logical fallacies" books down and read up on Professor Saltin. He belittles us for not knowing anything on the subject, so maybe an expert like Saltin can get through to him. ?

The article says "refused a test", then "evaded a test", then later "failed to submit a sample", and that "no further details have yet been revealed by the AIU". These are three different things. It's correct to say that none of these are an adverse analytical finding -- you shouldn't need me to arrive at that conclusion. Later we see this was his third missed test.

I Agree wrote:

Certainly rekrunner will downplay it probably stating something along the lines that's it's a "logical fallacy" to assume that a refusal actually means the athlete was doping. ? Canova, OTOH, surprises me. I would have thought by now with this rash of top Kenyan doping positives he would be outraged & angered to no end.

Kenyan Athletics is imploding...this is getting ridiculous! See El K's post up thread, with the Bett refusal he's even pissed off and has had enough of this.

heat dissipation is the limiting factor to race performance. end of story. and no, i dont have to show evidence because you’re corrupt