New Gen Camp = Misogyny Training for High Schoolers

hmmmm....... wrote:

This will likely never happen, but I would love to hear from either the New Gen people or the camper who posted,

How or if they felt empowered as they did the modeling for this shoot?

How did the new Gen people ensure everyone was ok with the set ups? Professional modeling and photographers now do specific things to make sure everyone is OK in sensitive shoots like this and goes beyond, "hey this seems fun!"

The photos are about power, and in order to take them they had to pose in those positions. Even in jest, why did they choose those poses?

A true artist would be able to thoughtfully answer those questions. It's concerning that these pics become part of the kids portfolio of work, and any other professional will ask similar questions and the answer is a shruggie, idk, and defensiveness?

Yikes. it really could harm them.

expandyourhorizons wrote:

I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.

So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.

In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.

expandyourhorizons wrote:

I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.

So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.

In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.

expandyourhorizons wrote:

I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.

So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.

In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.

expandyourhorizons wrote:

I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.

So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.

In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.

horizonsexpanded wrote:

expandyourhorizons wrote:

I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.

So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.

In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.

I think some of this analysis is right, especially the part about young artists trying to navigate the consequences and intentions of their own subversive art.

However, what I think you miss is that this camp in no way seems some sort of art camp. It's actually about content, which isn't really art. It can be, but certainly not always. These aren't art school kids trying to make portfolios for grad school; they're young photographers at a malleable age trying to think about what they want to do, and how they want to portray themselves and others.

The problem isn't that some "uneducated puritans" pushed back at the "art" of some kids. It's that a genuine criticism was made (even if it was made in a way that people didn't like, or by someone people don't like), and the response to it was absolutely awful. Homophobic comments. Burner accounts. An apology that was taken down.

If this really was art, I would've appreciated the adults in the room to stand by it, subversive as it may or may not be. That would've at least been interesting! But no adults have done anything, really. And I feel bad for the kids involved, even the one who took the original photos.

And yes, it's been terrible to see accusations being made that run the gamut from minor (being a creep) to major (pedophilia). That's awful to read, especially if they come from an unsubstantiated place.

All that to say, the adults in the room are the ones who messed this up, not the kids. Kids can and should make art. They can and should make mistakes. But all they are learning from this is how not to receive criticism. And they are now being given license to explore more toxic traits, like hiding behind fake accounts, like answering criticism with personal attacks. You can be subversive without being awful. I don't know if people know that, but it's true. You can also be subversive and kind. I wish they had been taught that. It doesn't seem like they were.

it is time wrote:

expandyourhorizons wrote:

I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.

So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.

In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.

Lol this is way too long. Stop acting like shoving someone's face in the toilet is some high brow artwork😆😆

expandyourhorizons wrote:

I really think a lot of you have a limited understanding or appreciation for norms in the arts/creative fields. Many posters and viewers here are likely much more comfortable with strictly running content and whatever professional fields you may be involved with. But if you spend any time with artists, writers, comedians, etc. you would know that an idea/shoot like this is about as vanilla as an ”edgy” project will come. Obviously some of the comments were offensive but no one can legitimately lay that at the feet of the newgen founders.

So as for the photo shoot, which is all you can pin in them, you all really need to stop the pearl clutching. Saying that it’s so obviously offensive and merits an apology just makes it seem that you’ve never read/watched/consumed any media or art willing to push the slightest boundaries. There’s a whole genre of satirical art that presents far more disturbing ideas and visuals that requires you to think beyond your initial reaction/repulsion. To use examples you philistines probably know - do you think American Psycho glamorizes murder and assault? Does Lolita glamorize molestation? Or do they just use these shocking elements for some other purpose? It seems clear that the campers had the idea for or wanted to do this photo shoot. It is pretty obvious what references/inspirations they had for the photos. Some of your reactions imply that you're literally taking everything at face value to a degree that's shocking.

In all honesty, and perhaps a complicating factor, the photos aren’t very good! And that’s probably because most art made by 17/18 year olds isn’t that good. But the absolute worst thing for them to learn is that the consequences for trying a slightly subversive idea is the viscous condemnation from a bunch of uneducated puritans online. If you showed this at an art school, you’d hear plenty of critique over the execution of the idea but you wouldn’t be told that you should be banned from ever taking photos again. There’s obviously a massive disconnect between what many in the running world are ready to accept and understand and what would be totally non-controversial among the majority those who actually care about or understand contemporary art. By my estimation, that was one of the aims of New Generation in the first place. Something that I, for one, always thought was a good and worthwhile idea. It seems that a lot of you don’t want that sort of change. But if those involved in this can’t find creative freedom in the running world, I hope they won’t let this incident turn them away from art more broadly.