Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Over a specific 8 week period you are likely to see bigger gains following , Daniels or pfitzinger, Matt Fitzgerald, Hal Hudson.

however, runners looking to minimise injury risk with progressively improvement year on year with a limited training time at the same intensity without peaks and toughs may see bigger improvements

Who is faster? I'm actually interested. I'm not on Strava so I have no idea what these hobby joggers PBs are. But legitimately interested as sirpoc and KI have been key factors in the thread. Would it be a good race?

Also having tried this method myself and to reply to the guy above asking about an 8 week block. This method is almost certainly not for you. There's no special blocks, peaking for races or magic here. But long term if you stick to it I would doubt there is a better method for those of us where time is limited and precious.

As of right now sirpoc is faster. Just looking at strava's estimated PRs you have 15:23, 31:24, 1:09:40 vs 16:19, 32:58, 1:12:57. Actual results are a few seconds off. Not sure how KI's training has been going, but they're relatively close and putting up very solid times.

also, "Lard2find" 😂

You guys really are dumb if you think this training method will work. This thread is as pathetic and sum up modern laziness to actually you know, run hard to improve.

Sirpoc and his loser followers will soon realise soon how stupid they have been. It's funny , you guys really think he knows more and is faster than Jakobs oldest brother and more than Henrik who has started coaching the brother with hills, strides, hard workout. Like anyone with any sense does.

There's no evidence any of this works. It's pure fantasy.

Yeah I'll happily consider myself one of the losers following. Gone from 21 min 5k to 18:24 in a year following this thread. Previously had been running or following other plans for close to a decade.

Sirpoc's training is out there. It's not a secret. His performances in his 40s speak for themselves and testiment to this system.

There are dozens of testimonies in this thread of people who have improved more or less copying him. Hundreds on Strava. A guy posted in fantastic detail the other day on Reddit how he went from almost 7 years as a stagnated 20 min guy well into his 40s to breaking 18 after 9 months of this and still improving, even down to the Mile. Question is, why wouldn't anyone consider training like this? Not even should they.

Also, no disrespect to Kristoffer, but sirpoc is at another level to him. Sure, he has Henrik coaching him. But I'm just as likely to follow the guy who has had truly remarkable results and as have others following his lead than someone who really is scaling down what he knows from elite to hobby jogger

Would a pro train like this? No, obviously not. Are most of us pros? Hell no. It's all very well looking at the training plans of olympic runners, but the reality is we should be shaped by guys who have life balances, stresses, jobs, other things going on in life like a sirpoc. Also, I think there is something new here. Find me one other training program that doesn't have speed or vo2 work built in, no strides, no straight tempos and basically just two paces of running. Pretty much none and none with this level of success.

He's probably given as much to the LRC community for free than almost anyone I can ever remember.

If respecting or being inspired by that makes me a loser, give me a T-shirt now.

The great thing about this these and why it is so damn good is even when the usual guys try and troll it or make it toxic, the positive still shines through. Think how rare that is for LRC and you'll understand why the only loser here is guys who make posts like the one I'm replying to.

Got to give some respect to some of the older greats on here like Cabral, jtupper, JK, Hadd, Tinman, Canova, even Malmo with the summer of Malmo training. There are others I'm sure I'm forgetting.

And this thread has become one of them too.

if I was a coach of a school/college kid I would swap one of the sessions for a faster/hard workout because the focus is track

if I was a coach of a marathon runner I would swap one of the sessions to be a longer hard effort to focus time around marathon effort

why because you need the extra 10% this training does not give you whereas…

…as a middle aged runner with other life responsibilities and time restrictions, I’m doing this as it’s right for me and is giving almost everyone who tries continuous improve from around 3 months + onwards

I actually went back through a lot of old threads recently, I think pound for pound this stands up or even surpasses them. If probably provides the average guy or gal the best opportunity to improve, over a period of time where you don't have the pressure of blocks or cramming everything into 12-16 weeks. On top of that, there's been extra information into the theory which is new to most runners and also how or why you are trying to archeive goals. Nobody has tried to sell anything, nobody has asked for anything back in return and other members of the community like Hard2find have clearly teamed up with sirpoc to provide invaluable tools that you would usually find behind a pay wall. I like the real time journey as well.

If that is enough for the HOF, I don't know what is. As much as I love some of the other threads you mention, a lot of it I read and ask, 'is this really aimed at me?'. We have had success here from 27-28 min guys, down to sirpoc himself who is now I would guess one of the top masters runners in his country, all from hobby jogger down. There's likely only a small proportion of people this isn't for. I think a lot of people realise that despite the bluster of LRC, most of us are slow.

I thought I would post here, as I think it's worth someone coming here now and again and giving a fair and long term review of this method, system or whatever we have decided to call it.

I have been coming on LR message boards for many years to read. I'm now 50 and anyone who has been here a while will likely be as beat up by the place, skeptical and probably down right miserable by a lot of the experience.

I don't believe in miracle cures. I don't believe in miracle training. In fact, quite frankly I had this thread down as a bunch of idiots fumbling around in the dark. But hey, don't judge me that's how LR makes you feel! But then, you actually take a step back and think 'Hmmm, there is a lot of actual positivity here'

So, my background, I ran in school. I was average. Very average. Gave up, came back as a married, hobby guy at 36. I ran 19:11 for the 5k and a 1:28 half at 38. I stumbled around that level for a while, mainly using a mixture on and off of various new ideas coming out, or simply going back to more traditional methods from various cookie cutter plans you will find in the usual literature. I actually scraped an 18:56 at 41 from a day where it all came together.

Anyway, come around this time last year, this thread I guess was in its peak. I seemed to tick all the boxes. My best was long behind me, I was running around 6 hours a week still with various plans but I was going nowhere. Was running around 21:30. Tbh, I was pretty happy with that at nearly 50. But decided, why the hell not try this new craze.

Wow, did I make the right decision! I read most of this thread through twice. To make sure I hadn't missed or messed up any of the interpretation. Set out to just start out right away:

My initial impressions were I must be missing something, at the end of my first week it felt way too easy. Almost like a recovery week from what I was used to. The workouts felt like I could have easily done more reps although I did start cautious and that's not a feeling I have had in my previous years very often!

I was already doing 6 hours so I basically just replicated the classic here, 3*10, 6*5 and 10*3. And I just went on .....and on.....and on. Suddenly week 9 I noticed things were significantly faster. I jumped in a 5k , ran 20:50.

Just kept going. 3 easy runs and the long run plus the same workouts. On and on and on. Boring. Very boring. I hopped in another 5k around week 16. 20:21.

You see the pattern. On and on and on. Week 21. Ran 20 flat. You know the pattern, same week in week out. This was by far the fastest I had run in a very long time.

Anyway, I was building to a half, this was around week 28. I ran 19:32 in a random 5k I jumped in , them the week after I broke 1:30 with a 1:29 flat in a HM.

As time as gone on, I kept improving, when, remarkably just before Christmas I broke my best from when I was 41, a couple of days after my 50th birthday . I ran 18:29 and was blown away by it. To have a sense of achievement at this age just blows my mind.

The key to this is the consistency. It has allowed me to just keep going, doing my own thing. Whilst fellow old friends of mine are training themselves into a black hole of fatigue, I am staring into said black hole but never faling in. Anyway, last Sunday I broke 1:25 and ran 1:23:55 in a half. Cleaning up on my new age category of 50+ afterwards much to my delight!

I have managed to increase load as that time has gone on. From hovering around 6 hours to managing sometimes to squeeze out around 7. Running everyday I can, as suggested. Paces from the original posts way back now, seem pretty good. Maybe I had to slow them a bit for the first month or so, but quite quickly I feel into the Goldilocks zone sirpoc84 suggests. Easy runs are easy, just cap at 70% HR and whatever will be will be.

Probably the most difficult aspect of this is working out a balance between how much you have improved, versus where to go next in terms of paces, more time training to squeeze some more load out.

It seems madness to me now I was doing 200-400 repeats to give me a speed boost in a 5k. I mean really. I was a 21 min guy. This is simply madness when you think of it. Absolutely the limiting factor is my aerobic engine was running out of fuel wah before any speed I had in my legs was usual.

I just wanted to share this and hope it might inspire someone else to never give up on improving based on this thread. I thank those who posted their own experiences here that helped me decide to dive head first in myself.

Highly recommend the Strava group by the way, all the main characters of the thread post there regularly and as others have said, it's not behind any paywall which I find remarkable. You won't find a better bunch of free resources on the whole web.

Dude, running the same week after week? That's so lame and to put yourself through that and look like a loser to go from very slow and lame to just not quite as slow and lame. I mean, who is gonna actually do that? Imagine not having fun running because you have to follow some British old loser on the internet.

Bolded is what I don't get. I've tried some of these workouts & they seem very difficult, especially with only 60 sec of jog recovery. Perhaps I'm a wimp, or too mentally weak or simply bored with repeat speed workouts at my older age.

Are we supposed to build up to these workouts? And they're sub threshold right? Not threshold?

I'm fast twitch so perhaps lacking aerobically. My legs feel trashed the next day after these workouts. No way I could tolerate 3 workouts a week. If you do a long run & 3 workouts a week that only gives you 1 easy day between. Plus a workout day & long run likely fall back to back. In my opinion, that's intense for a has been hobby jogger like me.

I used the Norwegian Singles Calculator using my most recent 5k time of 18:39 (course was accurate). Also used the suggested pace times below to compare. I run 45 miles a week, so am allowed 4 miles of sub threshold work, but haven't been able to tolerate near that much. Easy runs are around 8:30 pace, (which isn't fun at all going that slow, except for days after workouts where I'd rather not be running at all because again my legs are dead). Track's snow covered & it's nothing but hills here so it's hard to find a somewhat flat stretch to do these workouts. (more excuses, I know)

Subthreshold workout recommendations:
1K reps (usually 8-12 x 1K) with 60" rest at 10mi to 15K pace (For me that'd be 7 @6:23 mile pace)
- This workout felt the most doable. But most I've done is 5 reps at around 6:20 pace. Haven’t tried it, but doing 8 reps would probably end me.

2K reps (usually 4-6 x 2K) with 60" rest at HM pace (for me 3 @6:32 mile)
- Most I've done is four 1mile repeats at 6:33 pace. Mile repeats have always been my least favorite (even back when running in college) & this workout was dreadful. Also did 3x1 mile on 2 occasions. 2 x 1 mile & 2 x 1k once.

3k reps (usually 3 x 3K) with 60" rest at 30K pace (for me that’d be 2 @6:43)
-Kind of mixed this into the middle end of a few 10 mile runs where I did 3 miles straight at 6:46 pace & it makes no sense, but this felt the most easy of the 3. Mentally it’s a lot easier & more natural feeling to do 3 miles at a time & be done, then repeats where you recover & have to start again. This workout was the most fun too, which makes me wonder if I should just do progression runs every other day & have some fun with running at my older age.

What effort are people rating these workouts? I'd probably rate these 8.5-9/10 whereas other training plans I'd rate workouts 7/10. I'm not getting a lot of cardiac drift so perhaps they're still in the sub threshold HR category. I've sorta been following the Tinman method where a rough guideline is CV workout of 5x1k at 6:20 pace, 60 sec jog recover, plus 5 x 200 meter at 1600m pace with 200 jog. Other workout is 3 mile tempo at 5k+ 60 sec, so 7 min pace. This method feels way easier than the above workouts, which makes me wonder if I'm doing it all wrong.

Sanity check here: look at what you’re writing and it doesn’t make any sense at all. Not saying you’re lying but think about this: if you race a 15k you can do it at 6:23 pace. That’s 15x1k in a row with no rest. But you think doing 8 x 1k w/ 60s rest at the same pace would end you. Can do the same analysis for the other workouts.

Maybe you’re currently overtrained. Or your volume is too high. Or these paces are wrong for you.

But ultimately you shouldn’t be doing this training “on tired legs”. Not that you should be fully tapered and fresh for every workout. But if you were suddenly forced to run a race on the day of any given workout, you should be able to do a pretty good job. Therefore doing 1/3 to 1/2 of the volume of the race AND breaking that up with rests should be pretty easy.

Also just come to grips with a slower easy pace. Plenty of people faster than you who have no qualms running 8:30 on easy days, or even slower.

If the workouts feel too hard then you’re running too fast. Period. You mentioned running on hilly routes. If you have hills then you need to adjust the paces. Are you working out in the same shoes that you race in? If your 5k PB is in super shoes and the workouts are in trainers, then you should adjust the paces of the workouts. 8:30 pace is probably even too fast for your easy days. Especially if it’s hilly. Tinman’s easy pace is 8:36 to 8:55. If you’re aerobically weak, you should be on the slower range of both the workout and easy day ranges.

@obturator.

I'm with you. I couldn't do 5 x 2K @ HM pace and be fresh two days later. Maybe because I'm at the wrong side of 40.

For my legs a total of 10k @ HM pace would be a recipe for injury if I did something like that 3 times a week.

Since the idea is to do workouts that DON'T feel too hard, I would suggest you do 5 x 2 @ MP or even slower.

After all, the pace we run in a marathon is after a taper, fully carb-loaded and with new super shoes. That same pace feels a lot harder untapered in regular running shoes and after a hard day's work !

I once asked sirpoc this question, and he thought there is a range of paces sub threshold that give the desired training effect, with MP probably at the lower end but still good.

Thanks for the replies.

@sanity check
I agree it doesn't make sense. "But ultimately you shouldn’t be doing this training on tired legs”.
I think this might be one of the big issues.

I do these workouts on Tue &/or Thur after work when I'm already tired walking out of the building. Then it's dark, windy, & cold which doesn't help things (more excuses). I'm going tweak my schedule around & try doing a workout on a weekend & I bet it'll be a lot easier.

I think I'm going to forget about trying to squeeze 3 workouts in a week until winter is over &/or work calms down. Had someone quit at work again so I'm working extra with lots of walking & time on my feet. May see if I can rearrange my schedule to start work a little later & do workout before work instead when legs are fresh.

@Xlzyt
Race was done in an older pair of Brooks Hyperions. Workouts are usually done in a trainer (Ghost, Novablast, or Nimbus). I have done a couple 1k repeats in the Hyperion & those workouts did seem easier. Good point about the shoes.

Hills make it tough & you're right I should adjust pace accordingly. I try to look at total net +/- elevation for a rep to find stretches that are fairly even.

@Charlesvdw
Ya, I'm at the wrong side of 40 too. Closer to 50 than I am 40. I like your idea of using MP for the 2k workouts instead of HM pace, so workouts don't feel too hard. Think I read somewhere threshold is a state, not a pace so I likely need to back off the pace or not focus on the pace as much.

How fast are you though? Ultimately, there's not many of us who should be doing 5*2k. It would wipe me out. Take too long. It's more like 5*8-9 mins for me. We are looking at around 90 mins of volume a week at 6-7 hours.

Apart from the hills and the work stress that will require some adjustment, there are a couple of other things to look at.

Somewhere in the thread, someone - maybe sirpoc himself - described the intensity of these workouts as the top end of moderate on Strava's scale, not hard. You should finish feeling like you did a workout, but not like you went all out. Keep that feeling in mind and slow things down or reduce the volume.

Your rest intervals are shorter than they have to be. 2 minutes rest is specified for 3K reps, so I let the rest interval range from 1-2 minutes depending on rep length. One of the ways I've progressed these workouts is by shortening the rests as I get fitter. At the beginning I needed extra rest.

Instead of trying to hit particular paces from the start, I look at pace as a function of recovery: What pace can I sustain for 1 mile (for example) and be ready for another rep after 1 minute of rest? How many mile reps can I do before going over the edge from moderate to hard? And most importantly: What pace and volume can I do and still recover by the time the next workout comes along?

Even Tinman easy pace is to fast for the "easy" runs between the workouts. Do not exceed 70% of measured HRmax or stay with Tinman recovery pace.

Personally I moved away from distance to minutes especially if you are not doing 1k reps in less than 4 mins at your 15k/10mi pace.

this get your 30min of threshold effort not pace, it far easier to start with this and build from the guide of

10 x 3 mins around 15k pace

5 x 6 mins around half marathon pace

3 x 10 mind around 30k pace

And remember take +/- 5sec either side depending of temp/wind/hills/tireness/shoe type

With the aim not to exceed your threshold HR during the workouts, and you easy runs 70% HR or max aerobic pace whichever comes first.

Remember it’s all about building manageable increasing load to receive the consistent gains.

once the load starts to plateau you can increase the pace or rep count and as you get closer the option to move from time to distance

i personally prefer 10 x 3 min closer to 10k pace, and 6 x 6 mins at HM pace and 3 x 12 mins between 30k/20mi pace