Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

i think i have gotten to the point where you stagnated - i can do 8x1k in the morning on a sightly hilly loop and average about 3:50ish with 60s jog @ 4:30 and feel pretty fresh. I usually run fasted just because its convenient for my schedule and it doesnt really feel like i strain too much, but equally i cant really push my heart rate up too much higher into the high 170s/180s.

i have a half coming up in a month so we will see how that goes. not sure if its an issue of fitness or just not having enough speed work. might start doing faster flatter intervals with standing recoveries instead to get the same CTL equivalent but at faster paces

If you feel very aerobically sub-threshold while running those reps but your legs aren't super comfortable at the paces it could be a real strength/speed issue - but I wouldn't fix it with VO2Max/Anaerobic intervals or anything, I'd just try to do more high quality strides after some easy runs/before workouts first. Some being kind of sprints up hills, some being track 200m reps @mi pace with full recovery (which I guess isn't exactly a stride but yk what I mean just non-straining speed-work).

For anyone curious at how far this method can go and is interested in sirpoc progress still, he just ran 31:28 yesterday for a really nice big PB jump. I think now at 41 year old?

45sec is too long to be lactate neutral.

Week 3 and 4 update here. Some thoughts: Toward the end of week 4 my heart rate has dropped a bit at the paces I've been running. I know that sometimes that can be a sign of excessive fatigue and in the past I have had that happen. This is a different type, I feel stronger than 4 weeks ago. I don't want to assign that to the training alone, I am using this method as I rebuild from a few subpar years and one year of almost no running due to achilles surgery. So it could just be fitness returning as well. But I do think for me there is value in doing this with conservative pacing.

Week 3 I ran 58.5 miles. I did SubT workouts on Tues, Thurs and Saturday (4 x 10min at 6:54, 5 x 8min at 6:49 and 10x4min at 6:35). Sunday I ran my usual trail look for 13.2 miles and came to the conclusion that for a guy pushing 47, running a longish run the day after quality isn't really feasible anymore. So I pared back to 2 SubT workouts but lengthened them a bit.

Week 4 had SubT workouts on Tuesday and Friday (4x10min at 6:35 and 5x10min at 6:54). Sunday had a long run of 14.2 miles with about 1400 feet of elevation gain. 60 miles for the week.

I need to do some sort of race or time trial to see how I'm progressing. I also signed up for a half marathon on March 2. Low expectations, lifetime best of 1:17 in 2011 at age 33. Really just hoping to be around lower than 1:30 and expect a bit higher than 1:25.

Any reason why you choose to run 40 mins rather than increasing you pace for 30 mins effort?

Found this thread as it was mentioned being great in some other places, but with 188 pages, does anyone have a good tl;dr or is there any other page that covered the results in a more digestible form?

From reading this thread it seems like a big takeaway is to be conservative on the effort to make sure one stays below a certain threshold. As I am not willing to prick my fingers to be exact, I figure I'll keep the pace just a tad lower. Also I don't really care about 5 and 10ks as much as I do half and full marathons so I am experimenting a bit where I do more time in a session because I need to race longer.

Will it work? Who knows.

tl;dr

Forget all other running and simply run 3x a week finishing each broken sessions final rep of circa 3x10, 6x5 and 10x3 mins at just below LTHR. Adjustment of paces based on time, slowest reps 10 mins and fastest 3.That along with 3x easy runs + an easy long run and nothing else will likely improve you. Your aerobic engine like most of us who have done this, was hilariously undertrained and you are focusing on the wrong things and will see big gains across the board

If you want to get every last ounce of improvement or want to understand what is going on here, read most of the thread. Focusing on a lot of the key posters, sirpoc, let's be honest he's key to the whole thing, hard2find, chillruns, shirtboy just to name a few. Ignoring Lexel for the most part. This will probably mean you understand where to go next, or how to just keep it rolling over and improving.

Three times a week will generate more load than two, but if you use the long run as a marathon workout of 10-15miles /15-25k at marathon pace then it would be fine, this is what I will be working on in the summer for the autumn marathon

Marius Bakken have a marathon program out.

Since you're starting out, it's okay to experiment, but I think you'll miss something critical if you don't try 3 SubT workouts and reduced volume. At 54, hitting MP or sub-MP twice a week is very doable for me - I actually get a bigger stimulus (and a bigger challenge) from the 800-1200m intervals at faster paces (from HM to 10K) off of short rests, and trying to recover within 48 hours. Try a week with 3 workouts of 20-30 minutes in volume each and an 80-minute long run, and see how it goes.

I hear what you're saying but I don't plan on doing it, to be honest. No way I'm giving up the weekly 2-3 hour run on the weekends on the trails of my local mountain so I can do a 3rd subT workout. It's too valuable to me, I enjoy that run too much.

And why do 3 runs of 20-30 minutes to get 60-90 when I can easily do 2 runs of 40-50 and get 80-100 minutes that way?

I'm not trying to optimize, I'm trying to regain some fitness while enjoying myself.

I hear you on that. I guess the thinking would be that 40-50 min of this work in one session might be pushing the envelope a bit, although it seems you’re lowering the pace a bit to achieve that.

I’ve had a similar predicament, because I have to take one easy day and a day off a week right next to one another. Means that I either have to cram a very hilly long run and a SubT session next to one another, or I need to sacrifice a session. I’ve started putting the SubT session into the long run, and do the timed intervals uphill. Maybe give that a try?

Some questions related to using this approach for marathon distance

1. Is this also a great plan for marathoning? Seems more applicable to <= HM. Curious if this plan is as solid as say, a comparable pfitz block

2. How should I structure my LR? Right now I'm doing a big chunk easy + big chunk sub-MP, and small amount at MP. I will grow the run from 2:00 -> 3:00, increasing the ratio of Sub MP:Easy portion. By the end of the block it will be a pretty good marathon sim ~23mi

3. Should I mix and match or pick a favorite of 10x1k vs 5x2k vs 3x3k? I think the longer intervals are a bit easier to dial effort in and keep it steady. Was going to mix it up for variety though.

4. Thoughts on combining 2 easies into one easy-long and having a rest day? Feel like if I am going to be running easy I might as well get acclimated to time-on-feet and knock it out in one session.

ty all.

1. No, the focus isn't the marathon. You're better off trying it on a 10K or HM block rather than trying to make it fit a marathon build the first time out.

2. 80 minutes at easy pace. You have to recover in time for the next SubT session.

3. You should mix and match. You get a different stimulus from slightly faster reps with shorter rest intervals. I do 800m up to 2 mile reps.

4. If you need a rest day, take a rest day. Long-SubT-E-SubT-E-SubT-Off has worked for me.

Do at least one full serious race build to see what the system is like before trying to modify it.

The guy sucks. KI would kick his ass and he trains speedwork and hills. Why you listening to a guy that would get his ass kicked by the hobby jogger Ingebrigsten. sirpoopy and Lard2find are embarrassment to thread and you all want to go to wedding.