23236451 wrote:
What pace should 400m reps be?
200m pace
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Lock this thread mods. I'm tired of seeing it.
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#3703
This post was removed.
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Is the modified Norwegian method, not just a bridge between base training and harder, more specific training? Assuming you're constrained to a certain number of hours per week, it seems like eventually you're going to tap out improvements from doing the same thing over and over. It seems like the progression should be mileage + strides -> sub-t workouts -> more specific/harder workouts. Once I'm used to running 20x400@10k, I could probably start making them 600s, 800s, 1ks, etc... and as long as you progress slowly, it couldn't be that risky, right?
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Others have mentioned this but I think it’s perfectly fine to add in a little speedwork following some of the sessions. For example today I did 3x8 minutes off 2 mins rest and then 4x30 seconds at vo2. Not after every session necessarily but I find it helpful to stay in touch with some speed while keeping the focus on aerobic dev.
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Others have mentioned this but I think it’s perfectly fine to add in a little speedwork following some of the sessions. For example today I did 3x8 minutes off 2 mins rest and then 4x30 seconds at vo2. Not after every session necessarily but I find it helpful to stay in touch with some speed while keeping the focus on aerobic dev.
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flotrap wrote:
JS MacLexel wrote:
I have been using it for 6 months now. I saw little progress in the first 2 months. Then all of a sudden I improved (some 10 seconds/km faster in all reps).
After that, very little progress again for 2.5 months, and then another 8-10 seconds/km improvement.
Very similar to my experience. I am 5 months in. Sub-T reps were anywhere from 3:45-3:50/km for a while – nearly 4 months of this. Paces and effort level did not improve at all for these months, but time trials did improve slowly (17:32 to 17:05). Then seemingly overnight started hitting 3:25-3:30/km and improved by almost 50 sec over 5k (17:05 to 16:17). I was absolutely floored by how strong I felt. Guess I will just be doing this boring workout routine indefinitely until I hit my fitness ceiling or want to play around with shorter, more explosive sharpening workouts. Anyone else have similar stagnation/sudden drops in paces? It is so bizarre. I don't feel faster at all, but after doing such repetitive workouts, it really just felt like business as usual until I checked my watch for the time and surprised myself week after week.
Always glad to read some success stories. In particular from people who had to wait bit longer for their breaktroughs. I am 3-4 months on that schedule now. Took me some weeks to get into that and adapt. The thing for me is I feel on top of my fitness. My subT runs going better and better and a smigden faster. My race times though have not improved yet on top end. A parkrun at same "tempo" effort level as August/September is now 30-45 sec faster, but I not able to run PBs or even year best on an all out attempt on this schedule yet. Will keep it up another 4 months till half marathon attempt.
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clubmate wrote:
Always glad to read some success stories. In particular from people who had to wait bit longer for their breaktroughs. I am 3-4 months on that schedule now. Took me some weeks to get into that and adapt. The thing for me is I feel on top of my fitness. My subT runs going better and better and a smigden faster. My race times though have not improved yet on top end. A parkrun at same "tempo" effort level as August/September is now 30-45 sec faster, but I not able to run PBs or even year best on an all out attempt on this schedule yet. Will keep it up another 4 months till half marathon attempt.
Based on the feedback provided so far, i am not convinced about this method. It seems to take a long time to change something, which is likely also possible if a lot of other training methods.
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clubmate wrote:
flotrap wrote:
Very similar to my experience. I am 5 months in. Sub-T reps were anywhere from 3:45-3:50/km for a while – nearly 4 months of this. Paces and effort level did not improve at all for these months, but time trials did improve slowly (17:32 to 17:05). Then seemingly overnight started hitting 3:25-3:30/km and improved by almost 50 sec over 5k (17:05 to 16:17). I was absolutely floored by how strong I felt. Guess I will just be doing this boring workout routine indefinitely until I hit my fitness ceiling or want to play around with shorter, more explosive sharpening workouts. Anyone else have similar stagnation/sudden drops in paces? It is so bizarre. I don't feel faster at all, but after doing such repetitive workouts, it really just felt like business as usual until I checked my watch for the time and surprised myself week after week.
Always glad to read some success stories. In particular from people who had to wait bit longer for their breaktroughs. I am 3-4 months on that schedule now. Took me some weeks to get into that and adapt. The thing for me is I feel on top of my fitness. My subT runs going better and better and a smigden faster. My race times though have not improved yet on top end. A parkrun at same "tempo" effort level as August/September is now 30-45 sec faster, but I not able to run PBs or even year best on an all out attempt on this schedule yet. Will keep it up another 4 months till half marathon attempt.
A couple notes that might be useful for you: First, I'll let it rip every so often – at times, it's a race effort every few weeks, and other times, it's one last hard rep after a sub-T workout. Either way, it'll be 2-3 weeks of monotony with some faster work to test the legs and get some added VO2 stimulus. Second, this is a simple but surprisingly tiresome method due to the high-end aerobic volume per session (30+ minutes for me). In absence of a taper, there were some weeks where race effort felt horrible, likely because I was underestimating how much energy I needed to replenish and underfueled. Then I played around with nutrition (ate more per day, bumped up carbs) and started feeling amazing. Long story short, I could recover from workout to workout fine as the efforts aren't crazy demanding – but the energy demands from high volume work can sneak up on you, especially when you need some pop in the legs for an effort faster than sub-T.
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flotrap wrote:
clubmate wrote:
Always glad to read some success stories. In particular from people who had to wait bit longer for their breaktroughs. I am 3-4 months on that schedule now. Took me some weeks to get into that and adapt. The thing for me is I feel on top of my fitness. My subT runs going better and better and a smigden faster. My race times though have not improved yet on top end. A parkrun at same "tempo" effort level as August/September is now 30-45 sec faster, but I not able to run PBs or even year best on an all out attempt on this schedule yet. Will keep it up another 4 months till half marathon attempt.
A couple notes that might be useful for you: First, I'll let it rip every so often – at times, it's a race effort every few weeks, and other times, it's one last hard rep after a sub-T workout. Either way, it'll be 2-3 weeks of monotony with some faster work to test the legs and get some added VO2 stimulus. Second, this is a simple but surprisingly tiresome method due to the high-end aerobic volume per session (30+ minutes for me). In absence of a taper, there were some weeks where race effort felt horrible, likely because I was underestimating how much energy I needed to replenish and underfueled. Then I played around with nutrition (ate more per day, bumped up carbs) and started feeling amazing. Long story short, I could recover from workout to workout fine as the efforts aren't crazy demanding – but the energy demands from high volume work can sneak up on you, especially when you need some pop in the legs for an effort faster than sub-T.
Higher energy need is also something I recognized last weeks. Need to fuel more especially before the workouts. But I wouldn't say this is boring, I like those workouts and still can alternatate distance and terrain. Even speed, some day I do more on LT1 and longer and other day I do more on LT2 side. Also I had an opportunity to do some lactate testing. Finger prick giving me higher results when blood sample from the ear. what my garmin is showing me as "lactate threshold" obviously just from my workouts is not too bad. Garmin propsal is right in the middle of LT1 and LT2 for me. So doing work in bit slower or faster range might be good enough for a start. Also the online pace calculators are not too bad although the paces I get there are close to LT2 and that even optimistic. I could not run all my workouts at LT2.
I also do not mind if this methods works but take months. As I run on my plateau since around five years more or less there is little I can lose with this method. In worst case I will just stay around that times.
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spoc wrote:
I've basically been doing the Norwegian model on singles.
It's not really that hard to "copy" in the sense the hobby jogging Ingebrigtsten puts all his training on Strava.
It's very basic , usually:
Easy
Sub threshold
Easy
Sub threshold
Easy
Sub threshold
Long run
Repeat .
I hired a lactate meter and turns out my paces are very similar to the equivalents he is running. That's a sample of two but for me who doesn't have unlimited money to spend on the test strips, it's good enough.
I had stagnated around 18:5x for quite a while for a 5k (that's all I really run) but have now made quite a big jump recently to 17:27.
Because there is very little vo2 max stuff I pretty much am ready to go for the next session no problem. Also feel way less tired running this way.
In terms of overall training load (coming from a cycling background) it also creates more CTL for about the same amount of time on feet (around 6 hours 45 for me) compared to training more traditionally, which I had tried (I'd read Daniels, faster 5k and a couple of others).
Is there anywhere that breaks the week & workouts down more? Or runners on Strava to follow, who follow this approach? Doesn't have to elite or speedy.
Curious because I've responded really well to sub threshold training in the past. Now I'm 45 & back in decent shape but need a little structure. I'm looking at Tinmans approach too since that's kind of what I'm already doing, but likely running a little too fast.
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obturator wrote:
spoc wrote:
I've basically been doing the Norwegian model on singles.
It's not really that hard to "copy" in the sense the hobby jogging Ingebrigtsten puts all his training on Strava.
It's very basic , usually:
Easy
Sub threshold
Easy
Sub threshold
Easy
Sub threshold
Long run
Repeat .
I hired a lactate meter and turns out my paces are very similar to the equivalents he is running. That's a sample of two but for me who doesn't have unlimited money to spend on the test strips, it's good enough.
I had stagnated around 18:5x for quite a while for a 5k (that's all I really run) but have now made quite a big jump recently to 17:27.
Because there is very little vo2 max stuff I pretty much am ready to go for the next session no problem. Also feel way less tired running this way.
In terms of overall training load (coming from a cycling background) it also creates more CTL for about the same amount of time on feet (around 6 hours 45 for me) compared to training more traditionally, which I had tried (I'd read Daniels, faster 5k and a couple of others).
Is there anywhere that breaks the week & workouts down more? Or runners on Strava to follow, who follow this approach? Doesn't have to elite or speedy.
Curious because I've responded really well to sub threshold training in the past. Now I'm 45 & back in decent shape but need a little structure. I'm looking at Tinmans approach too since that's kind of what I'm already doing, but likely running a little too fast.
Yes, put a "Monday" next to "Easy," a "Tuesday" next to "sub threshold," and so on, until you run out of days of the week. :-). I'm kidding, but not really. And as to workouts, how about 2 x 10 minutes or 3 x 8 minutes, with about 2 minutes jog recovery?
I'm actually in the midst of reading this entire thread, and taking notes of what people suggested. If I finish before I die, perhaps I'll post the summary somewhere (but even the summary is long in a thread like this).
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obturator wrote:
spoc wrote:
I've basically been doing the Norwegian model on singles.
It's not really that hard to "copy" in the sense the hobby jogging Ingebrigtsten puts all his training on Strava.
It's very basic , usually:
Easy
Sub threshold
Easy
Sub threshold
Easy
Sub threshold
Long run
Repeat .
I hired a lactate meter and turns out my paces are very similar to the equivalents he is running. That's a sample of two but for me who doesn't have unlimited money to spend on the test strips, it's good enough.
I had stagnated around 18:5x for quite a while for a 5k (that's all I really run) but have now made quite a big jump recently to 17:27.
Because there is very little vo2 max stuff I pretty much am ready to go for the next session no problem. Also feel way less tired running this way.
In terms of overall training load (coming from a cycling background) it also creates more CTL for about the same amount of time on feet (around 6 hours 45 for me) compared to training more traditionally, which I had tried (I'd read Daniels, faster 5k and a couple of others).
Is there anywhere that breaks the week & workouts down more? Or runners on Strava to follow, who follow this approach? Doesn't have to elite or speedy.
Curious because I've responded really well to sub threshold training in the past. Now I'm 45 & back in decent shape but need a little structure. I'm looking at Tinmans approach too since that's kind of what I'm already doing, but likely running a little too fast.
There’s a good summary on page 60:And on Strava there’s a group called Norwegian Singles Approach
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I'd love to hear if people have thoughts on Respiration Rate. That's something that's come up in the Strava group a bit. I don't have a Garmin HR strap yet but open to buying it if it's a legitimate proxy of LT.
Some reading:VT2 and RRT provide accurate estimates of LT2 using the modified Dmax method. There is the potential to use RRT in developing field tests to estimate LT2 in practical settings.The shapes of the lactate and respiratory rate rise during an exercise ramp are similar.
Respiratory rate is well correlated to lactate levels during low/moderate intensity in modeling studies.101 -
This is a great post. I have enjoyed reading about people's thoughts on this in the Strava group. If I am reading correct, sirpoc himself has said he is using it for mainly easy runs to guide now.
That discussion along with the subject of super daily trainers, really has me thinking outside the box with how much I am probably behind the times. The sport is moving really fast. We are in exciting times.
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This is a great post. I have enjoyed reading about people's thoughts on this in the Strava group. If I am reading correct, sirpoc himself has said he is using it for mainly easy runs to guide now.
That discussion along with the subject of super daily trainers, really has me thinking outside the box with how much I am probably behind the times. The sport is moving really fast. We are in exciting times.
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awesome post! wrote:
This is a great post. I have enjoyed reading about people's thoughts on this in the Strava group. If I am reading correct, sirpoc himself has said he is using it for mainly easy runs to guide now.
That discussion along with the subject of super daily trainers, really has me thinking outside the box with how much I am probably behind the times. The sport is moving really fast. We are in exciting times.
bumping to page 1.
Excited to start the new year with the sub-thresh. Haven't done it yet but am reading page 60 and other pages for details. Skipping the Cogan/JS/Lexel stuff.
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new reader, old runner wrote:
Skipping the Cogan/JS/Lexel stuff.
That is the best of it, do not skip it.
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To anyone running around 17:30 for 5k, what paces did you find yourself around for 3, 4 and 6 minute reps?
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To add to my previous post, my 5k and 10k PBs this autumn were 5:36 and 5:52 pace. I've been doing reps slower than what sirpoc mentioned early in the thread, for example 4 minute reps around 6:10 but I don't know if it's too slow. I tried 10x3 at 5:55 and also as slow as 6:10.
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