Lactate curves of elite athletes show that EPO/ Blood boosting is pointless.

rekrunner wrote:

Can you help me understand the role of EPO in American, European, and Australian track in the 1990's, and how it impacted performance, or alternatively, why it didn't?

[/quote]

See progression of Spanish national records throughout 1990s into mid 2000s ...

Clearly those areas were not using EPO with a few exceptions.

They were also likely training like Americans in the dead years when low mileage was king.

Gary Oldman wrote:

[quote]Good science, bad science wrote:

my own decades of cycling experience. quote]

So you should REALLY know that drugs work. Your stupidity is inexcusable now.

I have been through all of that stupid EPO dogma a thousand times since the early 90's. I am very far ahead of the likes of you internet know it alls.

Who is studying elastic energy return? Rodger Kram

•Snyder KL, Kram R, Gottschall JS. The role of elastic energy storage and recovery in downhill and uphill running. Journal of Experimental Biology 215: 2283-2287, 2012.

There are lots of studies, google: elastic energy recoil in running.

I find it tedious reading them, they just confirm what you alread know, that when you are 'in the zone' you are using less energy to run fast, and you are breathing easily.

Good science, bad science wrote:

Gary Oldman wrote:

[quote]Good science, bad science wrote:

my own decades of cycling experience. quote]

So you should REALLY know that drugs work. Your stupidity is inexcusable now.

I have been through all of that stupid EPO dogma a thousand times since the early 90's. I am very far ahead of the likes of you internet know it alls.

Don't knock it until you try it.

That just means you are warmed up.

Try running faster.

You are getting beaten so badly that you started an identical thread under a different handle. Sadly for you it was deleted.

I did that last night. I was going very well thanks.

The basic premise here is being ignored by nouse4abrain and you, but I know you are giving hypothetical arguments and I am ok with that. However, you still don't believe what I am saying that blood boosting is pointless. Look at the economy numbers, that is what it's all about. More oxygen = more heat productioon, more sweating, more glycogen use, more fatigue etc. The concept is just plain bad science to say that elites are using more oxygen to race faster. They are using less.

What knowledge does he have? He doesn't even know what the word efficiency means. He doesn't know the biochmistry or the bioenergetics. He just keeps repeating the same misconceptions. But for some reason he keeps trying to pick my brain for information. Did that pass you by?

Are you J.O.?

America and Europe and Australia did not use EPO at all, in the 1990's, with a few exceptions. OK.So what's the basis for concluding EPO works at all, on the track, or the road, at the elite level?

Gary Oldman wrote:

Clearly those areas were not using EPO with a few exceptions.

They were also likely training like Americans in the dead years when low mileage was king.

People run ridiculously fast without breathing hard.

How do they do that? You said on the other thread that this was because of higher oxygen saturation, but you don't seem to accept the basic concept of oxygen economy?

Another aspect of the extra oxygen/blood boosting dogma is the failure to recognise that those supposedly superhuman exploits are impossible if the athlete is using more oxygen, more glycogen. This is especially true in the Tour de France. They would just get more fatigued and run out of gas if that was true.

I have to point out that what is accepted wisdom about EPO and blood transfusions is handed down to us by complete personality disorder nutjobs who ignore basic physiology and are desperate to control athletes and exploit them emotionally and financially.

nouse4aname wrote:

Metabolic efficiency is the term used to describe the rate of glucose and fat metabolism for any given exercise intensity. We calculate metabolic efficiency via the Respiratory Exchange Ratio (RER)

RER = VCO2 / VO2

RER tells us the mixture of fat and glucose you are burning at any given pace. The higher the RER, the more glycogen you're burning and the less efficient you are. Conversely; the lower the RER, the less glycogen you're burning and the more efficient you are.

Here you are saying that glycogen burning is less efficient, and that fat burning is more efficient.

So why did you spend so much time arguing that fat was less efficient and trying to make out that you were right and I was wrong?

You are hopelessly confused.

SlowFatMaster wrote:

Are you J.O.?

Yes.

Good science, bad science wrote:

How do they do that? You said on the other thread that this was because of higher oxygen saturation, but you don't seem to accept the basic concept of oxygen economy?

Another aspect of the extra oxygen/blood boosting dogma is the failure to recognise that those supposedly superhuman exploits are impossible if the athlete is using more oxygen, more glycogen. This is especially true in the Tour de France. They would just get more fatigued and run out of gas if that was true.

I have to point out that what is accepted wisdom about EPO and blood transfusions is handed down to us by complete personality disorder nutjobs who ignore basic physiology and are desperate to control athletes and exploit them emotionally and financially.

They don't have to be economical because they have extra oxygen practically oozing out of their pores.

You don't have to be a miser if you're swimming in cash.

TdeF riders just eat more to make up for energy use. Why would they run out of gas if they can re-fuel as they go?

Good science, bad science wrote:

Here you are saying that glycogen burning is less efficient, and that fat burning is more efficient.

So why did you spend so much time arguing that fat was less efficient and trying to make out that you were right and I was wrong?

You are hopelessly confused.

OXYGEN EFFICIENCY and ENERGY EFFICIENCY are two different concepts! I'm so tired of having to answer your stupid questions. Please read some of the bioenergetics articles i posted links to earlier. It is all explained pretty well in them.

Fat is more efficient at generating ATP per unit mass.

Glucose is more efficient at generating ATP per unit oxygen.

See how those two concepts can coexist? Come on man, this stuff is not that hard....

nouse4aname wrote:

See how those two concepts can coexist? Come on man, this stuff is not that hard....

But you are a scientist and he's a guy that reads and thinks he understands scientific articles.

Vast difference.

rekrunner wrote:

America and Europe and Australia did not use EPO at all, in the 1990's, with a few exceptions. OK.

So what's the basis for concluding EPO works at all, on the track, or the road, at the elite level?

There's one thing that men's performance depth clearly does correlate with. Check out "by venue"

Malmo's charts

marathon

10,000m

5000m

3000m SC

1500m

Only through 2009 - 2014 was the deepest ever for 1500m, 2012 deepest ever for 800m and steeplechase