Wow, Lydiard training seems ridiculously hard

Well, I think I understand your points about specificity, and the "issue" with a classic periodization spending too much time with general development, neglecting specific support and training.

I think I understand HRE and Nobby and Kim and Lydiard, and it's not my mission to change their opinions. I think I understand your opinion of Lydiard adepts and Lydiard lacing, and it's not my mission to change your opinion. Like you said, Lydiard, even if it's no longer the best, is a good choice among many poorer choices. History has shown we can do worse than Lydiard.

I think I understand what you wanted to say with your strength endurance ratio, as long as we're careful how to interpret it.

I think I understand what training individualization can mean, and maybe that's why you bring up Davies and Snell training together.

I think I already understood a lot of what Renato says, from a few of his previous posts, and the ideas of finding an athletes event before defining his training, and the basic goal of working on extending your speed. I don't know if I can ever achieve the kind of MAX LASS he's used to observing. I know what he means about convincing athletes to train for their best event. My best event was surely the 800m, but I never ever liked it. My coach forced me to run it. These days, 10Ks are my highest aspiration (strong legs, weak mind), even if I might still be better at shorter events.

If you have something new to say about resistance and specific strength endurance, and training individualization, I'm still happy to read it. If you want to finally give me the name of some good books (you said you had a dozen or so), I'll be happy to read one or two of those.

A runner with a 59 second 400 m pb will never run a sub 4 min mile. Absurd.

Hodgie-san wrote:

Yes.

The best way to extend/enhance the basic speed is to increase endurance.

Theoreticaly, a runner with a 59 second PB for 400M can run a sub 4 minute mile.

What they need most is to enhance/extend their speed fully.

Basic Lydiard approach did this 40 years ago and unless the human body has changed (it hasn't) it does so today.

eurodonkey wrote:

Not quite what I meant, but....I hope we can all agree that the New Zealand all-black racing vest is a timeless classic ;-)

No argument there.

In the history of the training methodology, one of the great training mistakes, if not the great one, starts when Lydiard, after that he realizes that the aerobic condition is enhanced by mileage volumetraining, he starts to “impose” one training volume standard – the popular and well known 100miles marathon training block.

This caused a training breakthrough to the way the long distance training might be conceived from the volume (quantity) perspective. The mileage might be understood as the consequence of extensive training and not the prime goal among the training variants. The 100miles volume training caused the decrease and the detriment of interest of the specific training from the total training package. Volume mileage might be training consequence not one prime training target. The volume mileage might be subsidiary to the prime training, the specific training target. The Lydiard “marathon training block” type, starts to be the main mean to train the aerobic condition almost exclusively. To the marathon training Lydiard added the long run for the same target propose.

The enhance of the aerobics doesn´t imply low mileage key necessarily. It implies that the volume training shall be flexible over every training phase. It implies that the 100 miles can be exceeded or reduced, but never a fix volume agenda as main target goal.

From Lydiard on, many training methodologies from the Lydiard influence, instead of build the training plan submitted (derived) from the specific training unities and add the mileage after, simply reduces (sacrifices) the training specifics, not for recovery or overcompensation need, but by the volume mileage determination and mileage cover. Reduced the specific training in percent and frequency was the consequence of that inconvenient training perspective. Another consequence it´s that killed every attempt of training individualization as well as specific training by every distance event, something Renato disagrees. From 800m to 10000m HM, marathon every season and every runner starts with “the marathon training block”.

This is an historic and methodological mistake. However the kind of fixed marathon training volume volume brought one positive aspect. The old training from the 50s-60s was low mileage key. Then with a kind of fixed high mileage the aerobic condition and the aerobic capacity did improve. I don´t deny the interest of the mileage volume as training variant to improve every aerobic zone. But to be submitted to a certain kind of mileage volume, it´s a training historic mistake, that the main responsibility goes to the Lydiard training.

[quote]werterwterwt wrote:

A runner with a 59 second 400 m pb will never run a sub 4 min mile. Absurd.

Theoretically:

1. Of, relating to, or based on theory.

2. Restricted to theory; not practical: theoretical physics.

3. Given to theorizing; speculative.

For years people believed it was impossible. It was impossible that a man could run a mile in under four minutes. Doctors and Scientists said that the human body could not possibly achieve such a feat; some suggested that the body would break apart before such a speed could be reached. Everyone agreed: the four minute mile was not possible.

http://successprofessor.ca/tag/four-minute-mile/

werterwterwt wrote:

A runner with a 59 second 400 m pb will never run a sub 4 min mile. Absurd.

Hodgie-san wrote:

Yes.

The best way to extend/enhance the basic speed is to increase endurance.

Theoreticaly, a runner with a 59 second PB for 400M can run a sub 4 minute mile.

What they need most is to enhance/extend their speed fully.

Basic Lydiard approach did this 40 years ago and unless the human body has changed (it hasn't) it does so today.

*****************************************************

He needs to get the 400 time down to 54 not so absurd.

And what about the Lydiard way to lace the shoe ? What do you think ? Very necessary ?

No, not necessary at all but proved helpful to some.

BTW are we ever going to see these great papers you mentioned writing based on your work with hundreds of athletes?

The person that says that a 59sec 400m can run 4:00 says a complete absurd. The 59s sec 400m can´t run 800m in 1:58 (2X59sec quarter split) and more impossible 4:00 mile. One absurd.

Roger Bannister was faster than 59secs 400m.

Kadaffi out of power wrote:

The person that says that a 59sec 400m can run 4:00 says a complete absurd. The 59s sec 400m can´t run 800m in 1:58 (2X59sec quarter split) and more impossible 4:00 mile. One absurd.

Roger Bannister was faster than 59secs 400m.

You miss the point. Not the first time you've done that on this slippery swampy thread.

If you two read my post you will see that I say THEORETICALLY.

You miss the point. I was thinking about theorically precisely. I maintain that theorically is still impossible.

As far as the distance/time duration increases the speed decreases necessarly, there impossible. I hope that this time you undertsand that as theorically or i n reality both is impossible.

About the other question, the great percent of top runners that since the early 90s break WR, or olympic gold medals, or world champs in every distance olympic event, 800m, 1500m 3000m steeple, 5000m and 10000m and also WCCC and W half marathon champs and they don´t do regular long runs (of 2 hour lenght or longer) i want to say something more ahead but you need to wait, i´m not a professional forum participant, only part-time post amateur, but you might agree that i do post quite a lot.

One of the worse faults of every athlete, but namely the distance runner athlete, is to be anxious. I don´t want to be anxious.

The question is that on this thread the speed of new methodological debate and also some other kind of comment turn my interest for some late posts and takes the long run question to the background of my interest, namely since "the great" Renato discusses about the long run better that i always might and did destroy the long run Lydiard approach.

Finnaly about the lace shoe question, it´s a pitty that no one from the Lydaird adepts ever teach me what´s the reason why benefits. Might be that you are able to teach me why.

Renato,

Thank you for the great information that you have shared.

Of what importance is the long run for junior athletes (u20) and what are the main reasons of doing one so it will improve their specific endurance for their main event? What are your guidelines for the distance/ speed of long runs for a u20 athlete who is a 15/3k event with pb of 4:00

thanks

One first clue that you might check out the long distance of modern champions. If they do or they don´t

Take a look. For Irmane Merga training WCCC.

I don´t see long runs !

You can check and do your own investigation about the present day champions and if they do regular kind of weekly long run or they don´t.. My suggest. Start by 800m and check out Rudisha, Borzakovsky etc etc.

THREAD: Who exactly is Imane Merga and how did you develop him to get his win at World XC?

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http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3972180#ixzz1Hdwx51Se

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http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3972180

Imane Merga is a very nice person, still very young not only as age, but also as athletic activity.

He was already 4th in World Championsips in Berlin in 10000m.

At that time I was not his coach. He asked me to follow him last year, at the beginning of April, in Dongio (Switzerland) where I wenr for a competition together with Moses Mosop and Richard Mateelong.

I found the guy very clever, motivated and with good education. He is one of the few Ethiopian speaking a basic good English, and also is able to read English very well.

Imane Merga is under the management of Gianni Demadonna, the Italian manager that for the first time introduced me in Kenya in 1998, when I was the Technical Scientific Director of the Italian federation.

When we spoke together, we decided to have a particular eye for the new Diamond League. Because for being competitive in that League the athletes need to compete in the same event 7 times, and in 2010 there were no Championships, we cancelled every other competition from his calendar, apart African Championships in Nairobi at the end of July, that in any case never could produce top results, because Imane never was able to run very well in high altitude.

The new workouts in his training were :

a) More use of sprints uphill

b) More mileage

c) More modulation

d) Introduction of long intervals on track, and of mixed intervals for increasing the final sprint in a situation of high accumulation of lactate

The second point was that we worked for having a top shape in 3 different period (coincident with his victories in some meeting of Diamond League), and for trying to be at 90% of his shape during the other meetings.

Personally I already had a similar experience in 1999, when Christopher Koskei was the only gold medal of Kenya in WCh, and I had to manage 11 competitions of 3000m steeple during the last 41 days before WCh.

Imane, and his management, followed all the project, and he won Diamond League in 5000m.

About this year, I motivated Imane and who follows him in Ethiopia (Gemedu) in trying Cross Country, that never saw him in good shape.

Imane is not able running fast when a cross is muddy. I explained that this year the course was like a track : perfect grass, very good weather (end of March in Punta Umbria is spring), and, last but not least, the absence of Bekele and Wilson Kiprop, that could give more opportunity of winning. The real problem was to qualify during Ethiopian Trials, because his difficulty in running in altitude. But the current field of Ethiopian runners, interested in cross, is not very strong, so at the end Imane was second behind Mesfin.

He showed also good personality, explaining during the Ethiopian training camp that wanted to follow his own program, and, because he was the athlete with more chances, he was allowed to do this by the Technical Director, Dube Jillo.

Here there is the program I gave and he used during the training camp

Imane Merga training program (26.02 - 16.03.2011)

Sat, 26.02

a)30’ easy + 4 x 10’ fast rec. 3’ easy

b)50’ easy

Sun, 27.02

1 hr 20’ moderate

Mon, 28.02

a)1 hr 20’ progressive run (last 30’ fast)

b)50’ easy

Tue, 1.03

a)30’ easy + 6 x 2000m in 5’40” (rec. 2’30”) + 1 km max speed (Track)

b)40’ easy

Wed, 2.03

a)1 hr 20’ moderate

b)40’ easy + 10 x 80m sprint uphill

Thu, 3.03

a)50’ easy

b)50’ easy

Fri, 4.03 (special block)

a)10 km in 33’ + 8 km in 23’28” (2’56” / km)

b)20’ warm-up + 10 x 2’ fast / 2'moderate

Sat, 5.03

a)1 hr moderate

b)40’ easy

Sun, 6.03

1 hr 10’ with short variations (30” / 45”) every 2’

Mon, 7.03

a)20’ easy + 20 km at 3’15” in 1 hr 05’

b)50’ easy

Tue, 8.03

a)1 hr easy

b)1 hr easy

Wed, 9.03

a)1 hr easy

b)50’ easy

Thu, 10.03

a)20’ easy + (Track) 1000 / 2000 / 3000 / 3000 / 2000 / 1000m (rec. 3’) in 2’40” / 5’30” / 8’20”

b)40’ easy

Fri, 11.03

a)1 hr 10’ moderate

b)1 hr moderate

Sat, 12.03

a)1 hr with short variations of speed

b)1 hr easy

Sun, 13.03

40’ easy + 8 km very fast

Mon, 14.03

a)1 hr 10’ moderate

b)40’ easy + 10 x 80m sprint uphill + 3’ running at max speed

Tue, 15.03

a)1 hr with short variations

b)40’ easy + 5 km in 14’40”

Wed, 16.03

a)50’ easy

b)50’ easy

Note : Max concentration, because the course is completely dry, and it’s your great opportunity for winning. Good luck, Imane

Why is it that HRE feels compelled to post in every training thread, specifically the ones including great coaches well established on the world scene?

You don't know shit, HRE!

You were never fast, you've never trained anyone fast. Your words have ZERO merit. Go back to playing dungeons and dragons.

Then go dig a die hole and get in it.

I wouldn't call this a Lydiard mistake, but a popular mistake. After reading anything about Lydiard, I never, for a single instant, believed that 100 mpw was the final goal. The goal was aerobic conditioning, and a high volume of comfortable running, whatever that means for the athlete, was a means to that end. No Lydiard adept would say you must get 100 mpw at all costs. If it's too much volume, or it's "damaging", every Lydiard coach would tailor the phase to the limits of the athlete, the same as Lydiard had done. In Lydiard's first book, he gave 100mpw as an upper limit -- you do not need to do more.

Kadaffi out of power wrote:

In the history of the training methodology, one of the great training mistakes, if not the great one, starts when Lydiard, after that he realizes that the aerobic condition is enhanced by mileage volumetraining, he starts to “impose” one training volume standard – the popular and well known 100miles marathon training block.

...

Popular, yes, but among the Lidiard adepts and spread by the Lydird adept in first instance.

Ok, Might not be Lydiard intention built the 100miles made in stone. But why the adepts of one theory or system used to be more radicals and fondamentalists than the

teacher ? Not just radials and fondamentalists but excessives also. Just take a look to some japanese training influenced by Lydiard. They exceed the 100miles, they respect the long run. It´s time the Lydiard coach, adept or runner to be aware that the aerobic condidition can´t be neglet but can be reached by mileage volume, but might include other training workout variables as benefic as the mileage training either.

Morrison wrote:

Why is it that HRE feels compelled to post in every training thread, specifically the ones including great coaches well established on the world scene?

You don't know shit, HRE!

You were never fast, you've never trained anyone fast. Your words have ZERO merit. Go back to playing dungeons and dragons.

Then go dig a die hole and get in it.

I want to post about this trash post.

I want to say all of you and special to HRE that you can trust me, i didn´t this kind of rubbish post.

It´s not my style. It´s true that i used to be pointless, and at this my peculiar indiossincrasy i was been ironic, and afirmative, and among others, HRE was been the target of my pointeless, but i refuse the straight offense.

This is one trash post. I try don´t forget to discriminate between the bloody arguement, the bloody debate and what´s just the pure offense with no meaning.

Mr. HRE. Keep on posting if you please. Don´t pay attention to this kind jerky posts.

rekrunner

I guess that before we continued, i think you did read most of this board forum. Why don´t you try to clarify the HRE last doubt about the runner fiber type ?

Sometime ago, i remember to read about this issue, on that John Hadd thread how to detect the fiber type by empiric observation. Are you able to let us know how to determine the type 1 FT and the type 2 ST runner ?

Nicely said, Cabral.

You no english speaking s.o.b.

I think I saw a presentation where Lydiard told the Japanese exactly that. They were doing to much "aerobic" work, and not enough "anaerobic" work.I always got the impression, it wasn't the Lydiard adepts pushing the ideas of 100 mpw, but more that people reduce it to simple things like "100 mpw" and "long slow distance", leaving out other important elements.

khadaffi out of power wrote:

Popular, yes, but among the Lidiard adepts and spread by the Lydird adept in first instance.

Ok, Might not be Lydiard intention built the 100miles made in stone. But why the adepts of one theory or system used to be more radicals and fondamentalists than the

teacher ? Not just radials and fondamentalists but excessives also. Just take a look to some japanese training influenced by Lydiard. They exceed the 100miles, they respect the long run. It´s time the Lydiard coach, adept or runner to be aware that the aerobic condidition can´t be neglet but can be reached by mileage volume, but might include other training workout variables as benefic as the mileage training either.