Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

I'm not convinced his training paces are as close to the top end of the pace ranges as they look. Sirpoc's PRs are all in road races which are reportedly not fast courses. I know the difference for me between even a fast parkrun and a track 5k is something like ~30s. I'd expect his 5k PR (at least) to look a hell of a lot faster if he got into a few track races.

This here. I have run some of the same races as sirpoc , just by chance. We are in the same part of southern England. His 10k PB is worth at least another 30 seconds on a flat, fast course. I did this race he set his pb it is an average rolling course, I run around 70-80 seconds slower there and I'm a mid 38 min guy. Also, he broke 16 on a 5k in which over 1km is actually on the shingles of a beach. I was trying to be nosey and I don't think he's run any kind of fast 5k in a while. I assume he knows what he's doing as his workouts the HR seems to be either at or just below LTHR by the end of quite a bit below.

Three weeks ago I ran 17:36 in an official 5k and 17:34 the week before at parkrun.

I gave parkrun another go today after a hiatus and ran a disappointing 18:01. My slowest time since April.

I wasn't wearing the vaporfly this time so I'm not sure how that effects things, but it's surely not worth 25-30 seconds? I have got a bit lazy over the past few weeks with the workouts. I would typically drive out to a straight section of road and do 3 or 4 minute reps averaging around 6:05-6:10. Then a parkrun on the weekend. 8 miles total averaging around 6:00. I've instead been doing mile repeats around the block, somewhere around 6:15-6:20. 8 miles total per week. Same volume as before. Just slower. Same overall mileage. Perhaps I don't respond to sub-threshold as much as I thought?

That’s a fair point. Even if we give him 30s over 10k though, that would put him at 31:30, 3:09 per km. His recent 10 x 1k have featured some sub-3:10 kms and with the rest only a few seconds slower. Others on this thread have mentioned that, when they first tried this method, the paces that Sirpoc recommended were a bit quick. The point that I’m trying to make is that you don’t need to get that close to threshold to see the benefits. You can be quite a bit under threshold and still see very similar results. Whenever people come to this thread and say that the method isn’t working for them or they are frustrated that they aren’t seeing progress, my first thought is that they should try dialing back the paces.

Did 50 miles this week and 8 sets of 4 mins. each at 4:40-4:45/km. The best part is I felt like I could have done more! (I think that's the point of these--not going over the edge and doing them all in 4:10-4:15 and then getting hurt).

You absolutely need to add in hills or something faster or else you will plateau on this for any distances below 10k.

Have been using my method myself. Like a whole bunch of people on Strava group, very happy with the results. Put me in the skeptical column, before I did and saw it for myself!

Congrats to sirpoc! 1:12:01. I just wish the guy would run some normal or fast courses! So we can really see where he is at! This HM had the first 5k fully uphill! I would imagine he must be at 1:10 at least, maybe less on a fast course.

You guys are suckers. 1:12? Lol There are tens of thousands of people who run way faster . This course certainly wasn't hilly, saw it on Strava. This thread just needs to end.

Although I generally find your sneering and name-calling to be persuasive, I expect that nearly everyone over 40 who runs faster than 72 for a half probably does so on way more than 55 mpw.

I looked up the official course profile of this race, not Strava numbers. It's around 1000 feet of climbing. 1:12 on this course is faster than most of us can dream of. I'm a masters athlete myself with some success regionally and I can tell you for sure right now I wouldn't even get within 1:15 on this course and my PB is quite a bit south of that. I also am curious as to what sirpoc can do on a fast 5k, 10k and a faster HM. If he is reading this, please be generous and engage the curiosity. What I love about this thread is I feel it does inspire me to think that I can still improve. Also being the wrong side of 40.

Well the flat and fast great south 10 mile is on the 19th October, and starts probably about a mile from his house, as long as it’s not super windy then we will see what pace he will run

Maybe 53 flat or better. AFAIK the Great South Run is one of the biggest UK events. I would imagine Sub 53 might get you in top 25 or so in a race like that. If he does that as an age grouper , hobbyist and only runner for 3 years and training properly for just under 2, then that's an incredible achievement. I assume the race he did yesterday was a course record, I've looked it up on Strava going back to 2016 and 1:12 flat is by far the fastest on that course.

To qualify for Championship entry for London on a hilly course like that is pretty damn impressive. I enjoy seeing the progress he makes still. Whilst I love watching elite athletics; seeing someone with a family, job, life outside of running, not taking it super seriously and past their prime (like most of us!) but still run to a sub elite level, makes me think I can do it!

On intervals.icu there's also a fatigue and form line plotted against the fitness/CTL line. How does this come into play? Should they also continue increasing?

Today was 1 up, 6 sets of 3x1 (7:40 pace on, 8:40 off), 1 down.

Nice and steady; it's making 7:40 pace feel a lot easier!

Hey guys. Just wanted to add another case study to the thread.

I've been following this method for 16 weeks now. Running roughly 6 hours per week, with between 20-25% of volume at ST. My only change to the plan is that I replace Mondays easy run with a rest day.

I did a parkrun three weeks in for a baseline fitness test and ran 18.08. I've just run the same course in similar conditions today and ran.....18.08. So no progress at all for me so far.

For background I've been running on and off for 16 years (I'm 38 now). I've run low 17s in the past last when I've been fitter.

From experience if I'd trained the way I used to for the last 16 weeks I would have expected to have improved by probably 10-15 seconds. So it's a bit disappointing to be treading water with this method so far.

Anyone have any tips? Is it likely that this method just isn't for me? Or if I stick with it for another month or two might I still get a breakthrough?

What are the workouts that you’ve been doing for the past 16 weeks and the paces?

Do you wear a HR monitor? Are the easy days strictly below 70% max?

The two most common reasons that I see when this method “isn’t working” is people are not following the method to the tee. They change the workouts, they run the workouts too fast and/or they the easy days too fast.

Sessions are usually a rotation of 3x10 mins, 10x3 mins, and 5x6 mins each week. But I'm at roughly 85 mins ST a week at the moment so one session is usually slightly shorter than the others.

My paces are slower than the spreadsheet paces. Probably 10 seconds per mile on the shorter reps and maybe 5-10 seconds slower on the longer ones. If it's hot and/or windy slower still.

I don't wear a HR monitor but I try and keep the easy runs very relaxed . Pace wise 8.20 something minute miling would be typical.

I feel recovered for the sessions so I don't feel like I'm carrying accumulated fatigue or anything.

Have you raced or time trialed at all outside of those 2 5ks? There's a discussion earlier in the thread about the ~monthly park runs being a useful stimulus. In my own training I notice paces stagnating if I don't do a park run or race occasionally.

Then again, there may be folks who may just not respond to this type of training. Curious if you're more of the faster short distance type or your PRs get better as race distances go up.

What pace are the ST reps?

I got to 17:30 last month in an official 5k by running 3 or 4 minute reps at 6:10-6:15. Lately I have increased that to 6:05 and feel pretty good. I only do about 25 minutes in both workouts so I never feel cooked.