First transgender athlete June Eastwood to compete in women’s DI XC this fall, has pbs of 1:55/3:50/14:38

Very interesting, just to rehash, based your knowledge/research, the following theory could be conjectured surrounding trans participants in distance running.

An adult male who transitions by adjusting hormonal levels to appropriate female levels is disadvantaged competing against natural born females.

In turn an adult female who transitions by adjusting hormonal levels to appropriate male levels has an inherent advantage competing against natural born males.

I don't have any research or evidence to suggest you are wrong, I am not aware of a single collegiate/professional female distance runner who has transitioned by boosting testosterone to male levels (is that even legal?) and competing in the sport.

My gut just says that can't be right.

Though if true, it would be fascinating to see a trans man break or even approach all time world records in distance events.

Dijon Gebremustard wrote:

Ahh...forget it

Was going to respond to your comments individually, but they are incomprehensible.

I have no 'liberal ranks' to break because I'm not aligned with any liberal group, don't sit around discussing the next PC move.

I don't even call Caster a 'she', because gender identification is bull crap. If life deals you the wrong cards, live with it like many disabled people who achieve great things despite their disability.

I have never read what caster's lawyers are saying so how am I agreeing with them? Simply saying that testosterone lowering should not be the criterium, it should be black and white down the lines of XX and XY, simple to achieve and impossible to manipulate.

You carry on about testosterone being the only thing, when you simply do not know what makes a male XY perform better than a female XY

cheers

Colonel Mustard is working straight from Alinsky's playbook. By accusing anyone who disagrees with him of the very things of which he himself is guilty, he hopes to dissuade any logical discussion of the issue itself. His positions cannot stand any rational scrutiny, so he attacks opposing viewpoints rather than defending his own.

Banana Bread wrote:

Is it just me or does anyone find her(June Eastwood) really cute?

If you're a man, it's just you.

Next question.

you misunderstand my point. june has reduced her T and E to female levels already and it has significantly impacted her performance, going from a sub-15 shape to 17:xx shape at best per recent workouts. so by your own standard, she has met the threshold for inclusion. now what we both need to unite on is pressuring the ncaa to actually adopt formal testosterone and estrogen guidelines (along the lines of 3 nmol/L T levels) that are actually verified, rather than the deeply flawed informal "1 year doctor's note" policy they have right now.

distance running is very different from power sports like lifting and fighting (and even from sprinting) in terms of ideal body type. many of the "male" factors used in arguments for trans exlcusionism in contact sports don't apply to track.

for your other point, the fact that there are more trans women than trans men in general, and therefore also more trans women in sports than trans men, muddies the waters a little bit. but for what it's worth, i believe the first trans athlete ever to make a US national team was a trans man, and the first trans athlete ever in NCAA D1 was a trans man, rather than trans women, both facts that back up this hypothesis:

jogger53, it's not the Y chromosome that makes people fast -- it's the testosterone produced associated with that chromosome that does. and by the way, if you have a male friend try getting them to run naked outside one day. having a flopping penis, if considered independently, makes you slower, not faster per common sense.

to be honest, i had to look that person up. but your conclusion that my positions can't stand rational scrutiny is totally incorrect, i welcome any challenges to my point of view and in fact have been met here by plenty of them. and besides, even if what you were saying is true -- what exactly have i "accused" other people of that you think i'm guilty of myself? so you might think i'm cucked and a leftist, because i call other people on this board cucked and leftists in addition to debating the actual content of their arguments? is that really your strongest argument against trans inclusionism, that i'm cucked and a leftist? try challenging my actual points.

my point was that if so many people like you are coming out and saying "i'm liberal EXCEPT i think june shouldn't compete!!!" then guess what: that position becomes the mainstream liberal position, not that of some "other" side.

this may be hard to understand at first, but the arguments for caster semenya and for june eastwood actually directly conflict with one another -- you can't be for both without contradicting yourself. that's exactly why i've always been in the semenya T regulation camp, and seeing as you seem to have the same opinion on semenya, you should also think that june should be able to compete.

Semenya's whole argument has been "testosterone isn't a performance enhancer, so i shouldn't have to suppress it just because i have extra naturally", while june's implied argument is "i should be allowed to compete *because* i have suppressed my testosterone". that's exactly why people like joanna harper were against Semenya competing un-suppressed while she's presumably in favor of june and other trans athletes competing as soon as the ncaa gets their act together and actually institutes specific T and E limits.

i would advise that you watch joanna harper talk about the semenya case here if you don't want to read the doc:

You clearly haven't acquainted yourself with information posted above that enumerates the advantages of simply being male with regard to distance running. They are not confined to testosterone. Testosterone has played a role in producing those physical advantages, but they are not abolished by reducing testosterone levels. But you are only convinced by what you wish to believe, not by the facts.

Armstronglivs wrote:

You clearly haven't acquainted yourself with information posted above that enumerates the advantages of simply being male with regard to distance running. They are not confined to testosterone. Testosterone has played a role in producing those physical advantages, but they are not abolished by reducing testosterone levels. But you are only convinced by what you wish to believe, not by the facts.

Bingo. That's the problem with liberal ideology, it's based on fee fees and delusion,

oldmanstillrunning wrote:

Banana Bread wrote:

Is it just me or does anyone find her(June Eastwood) really cute?

If you're a man, it's just you.

Next question.

If Bekele became a woman what would his times be?

Banana Bread wrote:

oldmanstillrunning wrote:

If you're a man, it's just you.

Next question.

If Bekele became a woman what would his times be?

About the same as yours.

Now you are just lying. And just made your case worthless. Go home boy.

It's interesting that the only people defending Jonathan in this thread are men.

One of them is obviously a paid shill, recruited by GF Maggie.

The other one has a long history of abusing women sexually, including underage girls.

It's no surprise that people who are known for their bad behavior towards women are trying to force us to run with men.

The mental side of racing is what will determine how Eastwood does. My feeling is that Caster and CeCe gave their all. There is no comparison between their male and female age-graded times.

Cisgender females deal with hormonal changes every month. While everyone is unique we certainly don't accept the 1950 1960 idea that you can't compete well or effectively train during your period. There have been athletes that have competed well in marathons even during the early stages of pregnancy. There is a mental aspect to how one handles hormonal changes.

The MTF transgenders I know put a lot of effort into blending- facial surgeries, voice lessons, movement lessons then practice. practice.. I don't see them wanting to be out front of a race. Not knowing the individuals involved I can't see how a comparison of times as M then F makes sense. Notably all the transgenders I know had the same feeling Renee Richards does about the inequality of MTF competing against cisgender females.

Eastwood didn't transition quietly but came back for a fifth year to do something as a runner. What that is remains to be determined.

I am a woman, liberal AF and I am vehemently against trans-women competing against XX women. It is amazing that June can live as her true self and I am happy for her. However, that doesn't translate into thinking it is no big deal for her to run against XX women. Honestly, I actually feel it is disrespectful to women by thinking it is 'okay' to compete against them while physiologically a man. Even with full surgeries and hormone therapy, there still are differences that would give them (transwomen) an advantage.

MNRunner00 wrote:

I am a woman, liberal AF and I am vehemently against trans-women competing against XX women. It is amazing that June can live as her true self and I am happy for her. However, that doesn't translate into thinking it is no big deal for her to run against XX women. Honestly, I actually feel it is disrespectful to women by thinking it is 'okay' to compete against them while physiologically a man. Even with full surgeries and hormone therapy, there still are differences that would give them (transwomen) an advantage.

I completely agree. Every liberal female runner I personally know are vehemently opposed to this crap going on with trans-women competing against XX women. While the number of people participating in recreational running may still be on the increase, the interest in track and field and professional distance running is losing ground as a sport. Just look at the poor attendance at some of the recent premier NCAA Championship track events. June Eastwood's PB's are absolutely meaningless. The P.C. crowd wants them acknowledged. The allowance and acceptance for this transgender issue entering into the equation will ultimately lead to the death of our sport. How sad.

alea iacta est, first of all i'm not a liberal and never have been. as i've said multiple times in this thread already, liberals represent the greatest threat to trans inclusion by far. just look at all the leftists in threads like this for the greatest example of that.

i've "acquainted myself" with and directly refuted all of it, actually. again, Armstronglivs, why don't you point out just ONE example of a "male advantage" in distance running that doesn't stem from testosterone or estrogen. amazingly, you actually said that being taller is an advantage in distance running. it's truly astounding that someone on a running website would say something that stupid! have you ever seen even one bekele race? your best source for any semblance of disagreement with me was "livescience.com", a blog, and evidently you didn't read that blog post because even that fake source basically reaffirmed what i've been saying this entire time.

finally, Armstronglivs admits that testosterone suppression works! i'm glad you've finally come around.

please, jogger53, point out the "lie" which you have conveniently refused to do ever since the start of our conversation. do you honestly think that testosterone isn't the primary performance enhancer? because that would put you in square agreement with Caster Semenya. do you think that having a penis, being taller, and having heavier bones actually makes you faster in distance running independent of T? because news flash, being heavy and having wind resistance makes you slow. that's exactly why, if testosterone and estrogen are regulated to female levels as they have been for June, the "advantage" you speak of actually becomes a disadvantage.

rather than take on my arguments directly and acknowledge the unique perspective i bring, you'd rather go back to your demonstrably false argument that everyone who disagrees with you is a paid shill. first of all, as anyone with eyes can see there have been more than just two people for trans inclusion, though you're absolutely right that the leftists have been the worst anti-trans offenders. please point out even one time i've exhibited "bad behavior towards women" as you claim i do in this post -- there are plenty of my posts to look back on on this website going back years, further proof that Dijon Gebremustard isn't bought or sold.

i mostly agree with you, but you're comparing apples to oranges in this post. caster semenya, by her own anti-testosterone-advantage argument, would be directly opposed to June competing because June's reason is based on the (correct) fact that testosterone and estrogen are the only meaningful performance enhancers between men and women. CeCe's specific medical regimen and its effects were not known, in great part due to leftists who continually blocked us from contacting the NCAA and getting them to do the common sense thing by changing their regs to require specific T+E limits and verification (they would rather have trans people not compete at all than have them compete fairly).

again, PC liberals are the greatest threat by far to trans inclusion and have been for a long time now. so to say "i'm a liberal BUT i have this position" isn't a "but" at all, your position is absolutely mainstream lefty and it doesn't make you special at all.

i am very sympathetic to the rest of this argument, but what you have to understand is that the idea of male musculoskeletal advantages in distance running is a myth propogated by trans-exclusionary leftists. the differences are NOT musculoskeletal, but primary hormonal, that is stemming from testosterone and estrogen. if testosterone and estrogen are regulated to female levels (think T under 2 nmol/L), as is suspected to be true of June per her running logs and as we should definitely verify with a new NCAA common sense rule change, then the differences actually end up being disadvantages for trans women, turning a 14 minute 5K runner into a 17 minute runner instead of the 15 minute runner they "should" be.

just think, what are the primary reasons they say that men are faster than women: being taller, having heavier bones, and having a penis. if you actually think about these features with regard to distance running, they all actually make you *slower* as a man, not faster. the ideal running body type is a female one, if not for the fact that females lack testosterone which actually makes men faster in practice.

Absolutely. I'm sure she is taking a lot of crap from people. Imagine, especially a state like Montana? Her opponents? Teammates who she is displacing?

Not to mention her family. Her mother was sobbing in her interview.

Gebremustard, - or whatever you call yourself - you are thick, as well as dishonest. I never said being tall was an advantage in running - I said being male is and - guess what? males are, on average, taller than females! But that isn't what makes them faster. It is that they are stronger, have more muscle, a bigger bone structure, less body fat, greater VO2 capacity, higher red-blood cell count - and all this on a consistently bigger frame; on average they are about 15cm taller than females, and several kilograms heavier. And that is just distance runners. And yet you have insisted that height and size must be a disadvantage in running. Clearly that doesn't apply when we see the difference between the sexes amongst runners - and they are many. That you cannot grasp this speaks volumes about your intellectual capacity. I regret I have to labour the point but your obtuseness makes it a necessity; it isnt their height that makes males faster; that is simply a correlation of the combination of physiological features that contribute to their considerable advantage over females. Those physiological features go way beyond higher levels of testosterone. But you haven't bothered to read the link that spells all this out in detail - or you have an IQ of 70, and simply can't fathom it. The one thing you do successfully demonstrate, however, is a capacity for reciting endless quantities of unrelenting and ignorant drivel.

Hear, hear to you both. MNRunner perfectly sums up the POV held by me and all the other female-born women I know.

Sadly and weirdly, the MSM English-language press has abandoned girls and women on this topic. The only news outlets other than LRC that attempt to fairly report the issues at hand all tend to be conservative - or happen to be partly funded by the Russian government: