Why is Sebastian Coe's technique considered the best?

Aragon wrote:

hmm. wrote:

LOL. This is like listening to a Lance fanboi in 2005.

There is a slight difference in the magnitude of evidence when one contrasts the case against Lance Armstrong to the case against Sebastian Coe. The Reasoned Decision-document by the USADA from 2012 against Lance Armstrong runs some 202 pages with 843 references, but thus far the case that Coe used transfusions and anabolic steroids can be summarized in three words:

Coe was fast.

The Reasoned Decision was a long way off in 2005. You won't find anyone argue he didn't dope these days. More likely his fanbois will argue that everyone was doping so it was a "level playing field".

All sorts of things are coming to light these days. Maybe 202 pages are still to be written about Coe. Blindly thinking that he was clean while on the other hand believing his competitors were doping or believing that blood doping didn't happen in the 80s is putting your head in the sand.

hmm. wrote:

Aragon wrote:

There is a slight difference in the magnitude of evidence when one contrasts the case against Lance Armstrong to the case against Sebastian Coe. The Reasoned Decision-document by the USADA from 2012 against Lance Armstrong runs some 202 pages with 843 references, but thus far the case that Coe used transfusions and anabolic steroids can be summarized in three words:

The Reasoned Decision was a long way off in 2005. You won't find anyone argue he didn't dope these days. More likely his fanbois will argue that everyone was doping so it was a "level playing field".

All sorts of things are coming to light these days. Maybe 202 pages are still to be written about Coe. Blindly thinking that he was clean while on the other hand believing his competitors were doping or believing that blood doping didn't happen in the 80s is putting your head in the sand.

No, we're not blindly thinking he is clean, you are blindly assuming that European athletes with no suspicion or evidence of having doped are as dirty as Third World athletes. At the end of the day, your only arguments are :

1/ Coe was fast, and whites are genetically inferior to blacks.

2/ It's racist to suppose that Coe was less likely to dope than confirmed dopers.

Yes, I do understand it. It's corruption perceived by the victims of corruption. If a Kenyan labourer tells the interviewer that he has paid 50 bribes to Kenyan police to avoid arrest although he hasn't broken any law, that 'perceived corruption' is more real and pertinent than your middle-class Cultural Marxist thesis on the Swiss banking system.

My father left school at 14 to become a farm labourer and my mother was a Glaswegian nurse and member of the communist party. I was the only boy in my school to get to university and I topped the philosophy exams at an elite university. I now earn 100K a year with about 20 hours a week work online. I might make the odd typo or get a bit easily annoyed here, but I don't think you can accuse me of being stupid. I have to say, the private school educated 'Marxists' in my philosophy tutorials did often giggle when I (the working class oik) couldn't pronounce words like dialecticism. Arguing on this forum sometimes reminds me of those days.

That is nice straw man you are building there.

OK, in your mind is there even a slight chance that Coe doped?

hmm. wrote:

Coevett wrote:

1/ Coe was fast, and whites are genetically inferior to blacks.

2/ It's racist to suppose that Coe was less likely to dope than confirmed dopers.

That is nice straw man you are building there.

OK, in your mind is there even a slight chance that Coe doped?

No, that's all the arguments that you've come up with in this 18 page thread and all the other threads here slandering Coe.

Yes, of course there is a slight chance that Coe or any other top athlete doped. There is overwhelming reason to believe that Aouita doped for the reasons I gave. I would say that there is less chance that Coe doped than many others even of that period for (again) many reasons already put forward here, such as Coe no doubt being heavily scrutinized and investigated as a result of his position (and the Russian ban). Nothing about his career screams out that he was doping. He was showing good form in 1984 many weeks before the games and only lost to Peter Elliot, one of the best middle-distance runners of the 80s, by the thickness of a vest at the trials. In fact, it's clear that he was only short of a bit of speed endurance at that stage, and the selectors made the right decision that Coe - barring further injury or ill health - would be back to his very best by LA. But who knows, Elliot might certainly have medalled if he had gone.

Worth taking off the rose tinted Marxist glasses and reading :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany

skj wrote:

Sebastian Coe was a pure sprinter. He had the worst endurance we've ever seen from a sub-3:30 guy. He raced the 3000m about a dozen times in his career, never able to sub-7:54 and losing by big margins. He ran them in Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, just couldn't hold it together. At least Cram was able to run a decent 3000m and actually tried racing a 5000 and 10,000m. The one time Coe ran XC, he placed 21st at Cinque Mulini. Wow.

So let's keep the facts straight and keep Coe relegated to a pure mid-distance guy. 800/1500 and that's it. Aouita is not the same animal.

http://thegreatdistancerunners.de/SebastianCoe.html

Your post is full of the biggest load of rubbish I've read on here in a long time. I wouldn't be surprised if you are someone else who regularly pollutes these threads with similar nonsense.

1. He was not 'a pure sprinter'.

How many pure sprinters made their mark over 3000m as an intermediate? He was the English Schools Champion at 16 over 3000m, not 200m!

2. He did not have the 'worst endurance we've ever seen from a sub-3:30 guy'

Coe had exceptional endurance capabilities, something which you are either ignorant of or choose to ignore. Just because he had a 7:54 3000m pb this does not mean that was all he was capable of!? He ran a handful of indoor 3000m on the appalling wooden 200m track at Cosford as training runs and rust busters in Jan - March. He was AAA indoor champion twice, in 79 and 81. When he ran an indoor 7:54 his last km was 2:29. Tight bends on a wooden track combined with a 2:29 last 1000m shows he was capable of at least a 7:45 in March.

Coe also ran 45 minutes for 10 miles in training in the winter prior to his 3 WR's in '79 and beat Coghlan (83 World 5000m Champion) and McLeod (10000m Olympic silver medalist) in a 4 Mile road race in Ireland (17:54) at the end of '78, off a season running only 800m races! It also broke Brendan Foster's course record by 9 secs. The same Foster who had been the 2 mile WR holder, European 5000m champion and Olympic medallist over 10k. In addition, both Coghlan & Mcloud had run 13.20 that earlier in the 78 season, before Coe beat them.

Coe also won the famous Vigevano road race twice (7.5km in 1980, some 38 seconds faster than Ovett was to record winning the same race the following year, & 1983, recording 18.28 for the 6.7km; 27:33 pace for 10,000m).

You should read UK's eminent middle & long distance coach, Frank Horwill's comments about Coe's 5k ability at:-

.

Horwill states (at the above website):-

"But where did Coe get his amazing endurance from? The answer came to me in 1986 when I went to Battersea Park Track one Saturday morning with a 13:11 5K performer to do a session of 7 x 800 at 5K speed with 45secs rest. The rep times were fixed at 2mins.08secs because the 5K runner was returning to fitness after injury. Coe was on the track and came across and asked what we were doing and could he join in? I felt a little apprehensive that an acknowledged 800/1500m runner would not survive a 5K pace session with a short recovery. The 800s went like this: 2:08, 2:06, 2:04, 2:02, 2:00, 1:58 and 1:56! Coe led them all. Afterwards, he confessed that he did a 5K pace session at 13:20 speed each week. I ventured the opinion that he could run a good 5K anytime. He agreed, but said he didn't like the event! It is doubtful whether any 800m runner before or since could have completed such a session in such times."

The 13:11 5000m performer he refers to is Tim Hutchings (bronze medallist over 5000m at both the European and Commonwealth Championships that year).

3. When he ran 3000m he was not 'losing by big margins'.

As a senior Coe ran eight (not a dozen) 3000m races. He did not finish one of them as he was suffering with a heavy cold.

Of the 7 he completed, he won 5 of them, and was 2nd and 3rd in the other 2.

4. ' He ran them in Jan, Feb, Mar, Apr, just couldn't hold it together.'

LOL. There is a reason, outlined above, why he ran them in the winter and early spring! Something clearly lost on you.

Yes he ran and won the AAA indoor 3000m in 1979, and then couldn't hold it together for the rest of the season! Breaking 3 WRs and being voted 'Athlete of the Year' clearly represents a failure and a complete breakdown in form, does it not?

Same thing happened in 81!

5. 'The one time Coe ran XC, he placed 21st at Cinque Mulini.'

Another inaccuracy. While I don't doubt Coe was not suited to running X Country and ran it rarely, he did win the Schweppes International X country at Gateshead in Nov 77, running 7:11 for 2.5km, beating a field that included T. Wessinghage (later European 2000m record holder and European 5000m champion) and Frank Clement (Olympic 1500 finalist) by more than 11 secs. A year later he came 4th in the same meet over a longer 2.25 mile course.

Why I appreciate Coe achieved nothing in terms of medals in championships over distances longer than 1500m, and I make no claim for him having the greatest range, his endurance was at least as good as most elite milers. The proof is in documented accounts of training by independent coaches, and his performances on the roads in distances greater than 3000m. You don't beat the likes of Cova, Coghlan, McLeod, Wessinghage, Foster's time, etc, without having very good endurance and the ability to run at least 7:40 and 13:15, both of which would have been world class in the pre EPO era of the 80's.

+1.

Unfortunately, many of these 'posters' with these 'insane' comments and outlook are likely the same person who is the main culprit for being biased against Coe. Many of the comments on this thread are there to wind you up and should be taken with a pinch of salt.

Remember, any poster who on the one hand claims that Coe doped, and then on the other tries to claim a GDR athlete was not doping and a general all round good guy because he was a teacher of Maths and Physics, despite the fact that he is listed in Stasi documents, won't be taken seriously by any genuine historians of the sport.

Yes, anyone can give the opinion that they think Coe, or anyone, likely doped, but to also claim Beyer was less likely to have, is ludicrous. Any other comments from said person are best ignored, because they have an agenda.

Edit. That link doesn't work anymore. Try: -

Deanouk wrote:

Remember, any poster who on the one hand claims that Coe doped, and then on the other tries to claim a GDR athlete was not doping and a general all round good guy because he was a teacher of Maths and Physics, despite the fact that he is listed in Stasi documents, won't be taken seriously by any genuine historians of the sport.

Yes, anyone can give the opinion that they think Coe, or anyone, likely doped, but to also claim Beyer was less likely to have, is ludicrous. Any other comments from said person are best ignored, because they have an agenda.

Agreed. I'd say the same for the Aouita defenders.

However, you have to acknowledge the bias here in people claiming that Coe didn't dope, because drugs of the 80s were pointless in mid-distance, and then whining that Coe lost to Beyer because Beyer was a drug cheat.

Further, Coevett, your constant rants against Africans and lefties and white self-haters, well, let's just say they don't help your case.

Deanouk, I am not sure what the obsession is with trying to over-compensate for Seb Coe's career. He was one of the greatest 800m and 1500m runners of all-time. Please leave it at that. Your constant insecurities about Coe's place in the sport's history is quite a turn off.

In my conversations with Bruce Tulloh and Dave Bedford (as well as several prominent English champions past and present), is that Coe had sufficient opportunities to prove himself over 3000m. If anything, Coe's poor results over 3000m showcase his inability to be competitive over these longer distances. Would Coe ever lose to Passey, Lewis, Dee, or Nick Rose over 1500m? Never. But he did over 3000m or hill and dale. So, yes, maybe he could have gone faster, but he was not great at that distance and even worse over 5000m.

You definitely show your inexperience as a runner, which is why I feel you are simply a Coe troll. Throughout my career, supremely talented middle distance men (800/1500m specialists) have been able to run workouts with my top harriers and distance men, so of course Coe could hang with Tim Huchings in a workout. I would love to meet you in person.

I am not going to waste my time going through everyone, but perhaps a more statistical minded posted can analyze who truly has the most degredation in speed from 1500m personal best to 3000m personal best. I'll just do some quickly. Perhaps WeJo or RoJo can dedicate time to this. And yes, you can probably argue that the men that have run faster than Coe over 1500m are supremely talented, but I will say they are close to equal. Seb had fantastic speed and was a 1:41/1:43 performer, but he was more like Mehdi Baala (FRA) in terms of endurance. Seb is definitely an outlier in the company he keeps. After this review you must admit, Coe was not strong over 3000m and 5000m no matter what your "tables" state. These are the facts and I even included more Caucasian runners at the end for your comfort level since you are slandering non-UK types in your posts -

Seb Coe, 3:29.77 // 7:54.32

Hicham El Guerrouj, 3:26.00 // 7:23.09

Bernard Lagat, 3:26.34 // 7:29.00

Asbel Kiprop, 3:26.69 // 7:42.32

Noreddine Morceli, 3:27.37 // 7:25.11

Silas Kiplagat, 3:27.64 // 7:39.94

Noah Ngeny, 3:28.12 // 7:35.46

Abdalaati Iguider, 3:28.79 // 7:30.09

Mo Farah, 3:28.81 // 7:32.62

Ronald Kwemoi, 3:28.81 // 7:28.73

Fermin Cacho, 3:28.95 // 7:36.61

Mehdi Baala, 3:28.98 // 8:08.06

Daniel K. Komen, 3:29.02 // 7:31.41

Rashid Ramzi, 3:29.14 // 7:43.85

Venuste Niyongabo, 3:29.18 // 7:34.03

William Chirchir, 3:29.29 // 7:55.78

Said Aouita, 3:29.46 // 7:29.45

Daniel Komen, 3:29.46 // 7:20.67

Augustine Choge, 3:29.47 // 7:28.00

Caleb Ndiku, 3:29.50 // 7:30.99

Ali Saidi-Sief, 3:29.51 // 7:25.02

Ayanleh Souleiman, 3:29.58 // 7:39.81

Nick Willis, 3:29.66 // 7:36.91

Steve Cram, 3:29.67 // 7:43.1

Sydney Maree, 3:29.77 // 7:33.37

Nixon Chepseba, 3:29.77 // 7:37.64

Rui Silva, 3:30.07 // 7:39.44

Matthew Centrowitz, 3:30.40 // 7:40.74

Alan Webb, 3:30.54 // 7:39.28

Reyes Estevez, 3:30.57 // 7:37.93

Steve Ovett, 3:30.77 // 7:41.3

Jose Luis Gonzalez, 3:30.92 // 7:42.93

Jim Spivey, 3:31.01 // 7:37.04

Ryan Gregson, 3:31.06 // 7:42.19

Henrik Ingebrigtsen, 3:31.46 // 7:42.19

Steve Holman, 3:31.52 // 7:42.49

Thomas Wessinghage, 3:31.58 // 7:36.75

Kevin Sullivan, 3:31.71 // 7:40.17

Steve Scott, 3:31.76 // 7:36.69

John Mayock, 3:31.86 // 7:41.09

Anthony Whiteman, 3:32.34 // 7:43.61

They clearly were less effective for middle-distance males, otherwise you would have had guys like Beyer totally dominating the 800m as the East European females did. As it is, he won in Prague, behind the Iron Curtain, where no doubt he could have taken whatever he wanted to (or was given to him) for months beforehand, when Coe and Ovett both ran poor races and focused on each other (Coe actually was effectively a pacemaker for Ovett and Beyer, so it's no suprise the time was fast - although over 2 seconds slower than Coe was to run 3 years later). Coe was the slightest middle-distance runner of the time and won two Olympics at 1500m and WRs at 1500 and mile. The UK had the strictest testing at the time. Compare Beyer's muscularity with Ovett and Coe in Prague. How many times do we have to keep repeating these things?

I rant against Africans and lefties etc because as Deano said, these Coe slanderers are short of concrete arguments and clearly have an agenda. And this thread was about paying homage to Coes incredible running technique and yet it's taken over by idiots who repeatedly claim that Coe was an obvious doper and yet it's racist to accuse Aouita, El G or Beyer of doping!

Olaf Beyer's coach was a guy named Bernd Dießner. He also coached Jens-Peter Herold and Jürgen Straub, two other East Germans who denied British athletes medals.

In 2009 he was fined 4,500 euros for supplying his underage athletes unapproved medicinal supplements

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernd_Die%C3%9Fner

https://www.derwesten.de/sport/andre-pollmaechers-trainer-verurteilt-id82212.html

"Dießner (63) is a coach at the Athletics Club Chemnitz. Its CEO Thomas Schönlebe said: "We as an association will wait for the outcome of the procedure before we position ourselves."

The coach is accused by the now 17-year-old Jessica Heblack, who told Frontal 21, she had received from her coach at the age of 13 tablets and ampoules from Spain and Portugal. "He just said that's good for you, take it and you did not ask because you just trusted him."

Heblack's father, once with a company and sponsor of the association, had filed in February 2008 criminal charges against Dießner. The coach said he had been persecuted by the family since Heblack's mother lost her job as his assistant."

Hope Beyer isn't feeding his schoolkids these drugs..

"Until spring Bernd Dießner was country coach of the Saxon Athletics Association and is now working as a fee-trainer for the national association and the club LAC Chemnitz. Dießner has objected to the verdict, but does not want to comment on the allegations. He just says that they are slander.

The now 17-year-old Jessica Heblack belonged until 2008 to the training group of Bernd Dießner, who gave her already tablets and ampoules, when she was 13. Funds, for example from Spain and Portugal, which are not allowed in Germany at all, as she recently told the ZDF magazine "Frontal 21". Your coach just said, "that's good for you, take it."

The young 800-meter runner had finally stopped asking because she had trusted her coach. Even the parents, ambitious and proud of the daughter's talent, initially trusted the coach and did nothing for a long time. Only when her daughter fell ill after a virus infection in the heart when doctors warned the parents of the dangers of tablets and ampoules, they acted. In February 2008, Jessica's father announced coach Bernd Dießner. On ZDF father explained that "after the competitions all had to open their bottle, opened an ampoule and poured the stuff."

Admittedly, according to an analysis by the Heidelberg anti-doping expert Werner Franke, it was found that the more than 40 preparations that Dießner's athletes were supposed to take on his instructions were not doping drugs, but medicines and highly concentrated supplement supplements. The coach as a layman can not assess their effect, especially since it is illegal drugs that would not have approval in Germany. That could not be tolerated, Franke judged.

Dießner oversaw already in GDR times as a coach at the Army Sports Club Potsdam internationally successful runner as the bronze medalist at the 1976 Olympic Games over 1500 meters Ulrike Bruns or the European champion over 800 meters from 1978, Olaf Beyer.

It is also spicy that Dießner has maintained close contact with the Potsdam sports doctor Jochen Neubauer for many years. Neubauer was convicted in 2000 for underage doping in the GDR. Until last year, coach Dießner sent his athletes to investigations, including Neubauer. That's over.

But Dießners club LAC Chemnitz will draw no conclusions, managing director Thomas Schönlebe, 1987 400 -meter world champion for the GDR, said only that the club is behind coach Bernd Dießner. Meanwhile, other former athletes of coach Dießner have reported and confirmed to have received from him earlier numerous tablets and ampoules."

http://www.deutschlandfunk.de/andre-pollmaechers-trainer-bernd-diessner-im-zwielicht.1346.de.html?dram:article_id=195287

It takes me 5 minutes of Googling to find circumstantial evidence that Beyer and Aouita were doping, that I'd never seen previously on any running forum or even English language site.

Yet no doubt hte Russian secret service/Fancy Bears (and many many journalists over the years) have been trying to dig something up on Coe and visiting every 80's Italian clinic etc, and they have found zilch.

And Coe was as likely to have been doping as Aouita and Beyer? Really?

I disagree with you. Simple as that. You choose to ignore a lot of evidence I have put forward that shows Coe's endurance up to 5000m was as good as most elite miler of his era.

By all means use 'private conversations' with other distance runners from the era to back up your opinion. Likewise, the link I sent with the actual published words of Frank Horwill, one of the most important and respected middle distance coaches of that period, states that Coe was capable of running sub 13:20 if he wanted. I agree, he chose not to run a serious 5000m in his career, stating that he didn't like the distance.

You list a plethora of other athletes' pbs for 3000m. Not only are the vast majority of these names athletes that competed long after Coe, most during the EPO era, but almost everyone's 3k time was set on an outdoor 400m track in the summer. You must realise that running a time on a wooden 200m track in Feb or March, isn't the best choice for running a fast time! I don't doubt that many others on the list 'were also capable of running faster than their 3000m pbs' , had they run a few more or taken the event more seriously. As far as I can recall, Coe ran just 1 outdoor 3000m (7:57) in April, and 1 outdoor 5000m (14:06) in May, both in 1980. That doesn't give him many opportunities to run his fastest at either distance. I am not saying Coe would have been equally dominant over 5000m or 3000m, but the idea that you seem to perpetuate, that his official pbs at the two distances reflect the potential endurance he had, is ridiculous.

You mention defeats by Passey, Lewis, Rose, in over distance races, all in the winter & early spring I hasten to add; which has little bearing over ability in peak summer; which is perfectly reasonable for an 800m/miler at that stage of a season. I seem to remember Ovett, who admittedly ran many more road races and X-country than Coe, was also beaten in over distance races by those who wouldn't sniff him over a mile on the track. Yet, you have chosen to totally ignore the fact that Coe beat even more impressive names; Cova, Coghlan, McLeod, Wessinghage (all World, European or Olympic medallists over 5 and/or 10k)in races of longer than 2km. In fact he beat the former 3 in races longer than 5000m.

If Coe's ability was only 7:54 and 14:06, then please explain why he was able to beat 13:20 runners over 4miles?

I could, just like you, compile a list of all those same athletes' pbs over 400m. But just like your list, this wouldn't tell us very much about their actual ability, because a lot of those athletes have either chosen not to run a 400m in competition, or have used it as a guide to progress in the off season, rather than at the height of their powers in the summer.

E.g. Cram has only run 49.1 for 400m in competition, but that does not mean that represents the sum of his sprinting ability.

In the same way, Coe chose not to run 3000m or 5000m competitively in the summer at the height of his powers.

"You definitely show your inexperience as a runner, which is why I feel you are simply a Coe troll. Throughout my career, supremely talented middle distance men (800/1500m specialists) have been able to run workouts with my top harriers and distance men, so of course Coe could hang with Tim Huchings in a workout. I would love to meet you in person."

Well, please feel free to offer the evidence of exactly what you did in your career and who all these supremely talented middle distance men were who you trained with!

I know enough about the sport to understand that anyone who runs 7 x 800m with only 45 secs rest in 2:08, 2:06, 2:04, 2:02, 2:00, 1:58 & 1:56, is certainly capable of way faster than 14:00 for 5000m, and if you claim to be an elite athlete, then you are fully aware of this as well.

The most impressive thing about that sequence isn't the times, but the recovery. I would be interested to hear the names of all those other middle distance athletes you trained alongside who could have done a session of similar intensity and recovery. Moreover, I would love to know all those 'top harriers and distance men' that were of the calibre of Hutchings, an Olympic 5000m medallist and 13:11 performer.

And you can drop the attitude with your, "I even included more Caucasian runners at the end for your comfort level since you are slandering non-UK types in your posts", or I'll report you to the Mods . You have brought up categorisation of skin colour, not me. I have made no reference to anyone's skin colour. I have accused GDR athletes of being part of state sponsored doping due to incriminating Stasi files, which would stand up in a court of law. You do realise that most GDR athletes were Caucasion, right?

I have also often mentioned the fact that several African nations have not carried out OOS random testing for the past 30 years, unlike many European nations. You do realise that there are black people in Europe don't you? That many European athletes of Afro-Caribbean descent are tested frequently and randomly? That Kenyans and Ethiopians aren't tested as frequently?

Muppet.

Deano got buried!!!!

Coe has the worst endurance for a sub-3:30 guy EVER!!! Hahaha...

Ndu wrote:

Deano got buried!!!!

Coe has the worst endurance for a sub-3:30 guy EVER!!! Hahaha...

Only a handful of guys ran sub 3:30 before EPO. If Coe really does have the 'worst endurance for a sub 3:30 guy ever' then that's an additional strong argument that Coe didn't blood dope. After EPO every top Miler was suddenly a 13:00 or sub 13:00 5K guy and couldn't run a fast 800m to save their lives.

How many sub 3:30 guys have even ran under 1:45 for the 800m?

Arguably the only athletes who have run under 3:30 clean are Cram, Coe, Sydney Maree, and Nick Willis. (TBH I don't really know enough about Sydney Maree to judge that he was likely clean). Out of those four only Cram and Coe ran under 1:45 for 800m (1:41 for Coe and 1:42 for Cram).