Once again, rek, tallon, and Armstronglivs show they can screw up a thread by demonstrating how little they actually know about running and the factors surrounding it.
That's a rather remarkably baseless assertion.
How about sharing with us which factors are causing Americans to run 3:27, 7:22, and 12:45 now?
Or answer the question of the thread, "What new drugs are all these American runners taking?"
Personal take; I believe every elite middle and long distance runner is at least on 'legal' pharmaceuticals eg thyroid and asthma meds as well as bicarb and the like and a truckload of painkillers and nsaids. Then whatever 'supplements' they can get away with. At the top end there would be microdosing of EPO and steroids at least. Then there would be those on the dark side who'll take a truckload of everything and anything to succeed (Amos for example). They sometimes get caught for their indiscretion. Sometimes they don't.
Oh 100% they are all on something. I believe quite a few pros are clean as in no illegal drugs but definitely all doing grey area stuff.
Personal take; I believe every elite middle and long distance runner is at least on 'legal' pharmaceuticals eg thyroid and asthma meds as well as bicarb and the like and a truckload of painkillers and nsaids. Then whatever 'supplements' they can get away with. At the top end there would be microdosing of EPO and steroids at least. Then there would be those on the dark side who'll take a truckload of everything and anything to succeed (Amos for example). They sometimes get caught for their indiscretion. Sometimes they don't.
We might get some insight on a recent ARD investigation involving some whistleblowers in reference to cycling's top secret doping secrets.
Cycling insiders have spent years insisting that professional cycling has learned the lessons of its dark past. New research from the ARD doping editorial team concludes differently.
Aicar, an endogenous metabolic activator, and EPO microdosing are very popular within today's peloton,
Historically, there's been a crossover with PEDs involving the cycling & running profession - especially with the endurance boosting drugs & methods (e.g., EPO, transfusions, etc).
Aicar, an endogenous metabolic activator, and EPO microdosing are very popular within today's peloton,
Historically, there's been a crossover with PEDs involving the cycling & running profession - especially with the endurance boosting drugs & methods (e.g., EPO, transfusions, etc).
Thank you for this link. The documentary is available to anyone who speaks German and has a VPN, here:
Nach zahlreichen Dopingskandalen in seiner düsteren Vergangenheit gibt sich der Radsport seit Jahren geläutert. Tatsächlich gab es beim weltweit größten Radrennen, der Tour de France, seit 10 Jahren keine einzige positive Dop...
Half a second over the 1500? You just plucked that out of the air? What is the difference in materials used today compared to 25 years ago and how do they make a difference at the elite level? Why don't they make a difference in women's events up to the 800, with records that have stood for 35-40 years?
I expect you will provide high quality answers and estimates to these very questions for drugs.
Are you still dwelling on the track, rather than a confluence of multiple factors? This demonstrates a lack of depth in your rationale.
Regarding the track, according to a writeup of the Paris Olympics, we see that the track is engineered and tuned to provide energy return to the athlete, improving efficiency:
"They're able to alter the rubber track's energy return mechanism by changing the shape of the particulate and the compressibility of it"
"When your foot strikes a Mondo surface, it'll sink in slightly, and the surface gives energy back. This pushes your foot back off that track quicker, putting the foot back into the cycle to complete another stride"
"sprinters and distance runners will run faster with the same effort they normally exert on any other surface"
This is a similar benefit with the shoes: The combination of PEBAX cushioning (or similar) on a carbon fiber plate (or similar) directs energy return back to the athlete's foot, measurably and demonstrably improving efficiency.
As both "track" and "shoes" address efficiency, this matters more in events where expending less energy for the same effort will leave more energy for the last lap. It matters much less in events more dependent on power like the women's 800m -- a rare event where drugs like steroids and male hormones do seem to provide a significant performance benefit. Yet Keely Hodginson still just ran 1:54.61 in London last year for a modern era best.
Regarding "bi-carb", what's new is the innovative delivery system, inside a gel, which means the bi-carb bypasses the stomach, and is delivered to the intestines and into the bloodstream, where it can counter-act acid buildup in the muscles that cause early fatigue, rather than being counter-acted by stomach acids, and often quickly flushed out causing great distress and embarrassment for athletes.
Wavelights, like pacers, provide continuous feedback to maintain optimal paces minimizing energy loss due to erratic pacing.
Drugs? Without any specific information, every discussion about alleged potential drug benefits are nothing more than pure speculation.
Talking of "pure speculation", you've cited the manufacturers' pr about the tracks but what does that translate to in times? I daresay the manufacturers would have said the same things about the tracks El G set his (still standing) records on. If tracks are better today why are his records still on the books?
Illegal drug manufacturers don't post marketing pr but you can bet they are selling something that works or they would be going out of business.
Talking of "pure speculation", you've cited the manufacturers' pr about the tracks but what does that translate to in times? I daresay the manufacturers would have said the same things about the tracks El G set his (still standing) records on. If tracks are better today why are his records still on the books?
Illegal drug manufacturers don't post marketing pr but you can bet they are selling something that works or they would be going out of business.
Jakob has an abusive father who loved doing blood tests and Jakobs brother was in the fancy bear reports. Like I feel like I’m going crazy, why does anyone think he’s clean? Do you guys really think the abusive father who coached his sons didn’t dope them and one of them just picked it up behind his back? You really think if Jakob was clean he could beat his PED brother?
Talking of "pure speculation", you've cited the manufacturers' pr about the tracks but what does that translate to in times? I daresay the manufacturers would have said the same things about the tracks El G set his (still standing) records on. If tracks are better today why are his records still on the books?
Illegal drug manufacturers don't post marketing pr but you can bet they are selling something that works or they would be going out of business.
Oh, self-deluded one. I'm not citing manufacturer's PR, but talking about athletes' PRs.
Back to addressing the main point, aren't you the resident self-appointed PR spokesman for the power of drugs? Where are your expert answers about drugs? Some unnamed -- but of course illegal for added dramatic effect -- drug manufacturers are selling some unnamed drugs that somehow "works" to provide some unknown benefit to some unknown buyers? Woah, TMI. But is that the very best you can do? I have no doubt that local amateur gym-rat posers worldwide are keeping steroid and creatine and protein supplement manufacturers in business.
But here we are talking about 3:27, 7:22, and 12:45 American runners. Tell us about the new drugs in the last 2-3 years that have enabled these American performances.
How deep is your mind? Your shallow one-track mind is still focused only on tracks, rather than talking about the confluence of many factors. It is not just tracks that have changed over the last few years and decades, but also shoes, bi-carb, wavelights, and even training.
And unlike you imagined, I didn't cite the manufacturer. I provided quotes from "a principal research engineer in the School of Materials Science and Engineering" at Georgia Tech University and from a coach to three Olympic Gold medalists.
Mondo Tracks were used in Atlanta, Georgia at the 1996 Olympics, so it is likely they said something similar nearly 30 years ago in El G's day. Tracks have undergone decades of engineering and manufacturing development and research since then. Mondo tracks have been in place since 1972, and more than 300 world records were set on them since -- before the 2024 Paris Olympics.
You can bet that Mondo is selling something that works or they would be going out of business.
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Reason provided:
PR
Jakob has an abusive father who loved doing blood tests and Jakobs brother was in the fancy bear reports. Like I feel like I’m going crazy, why does anyone think he’s clean? Do you guys really think the abusive father who coached his sons didn’t dope them and one of them just picked it up behind his back? You really think if Jakob was clean he could beat his PED brother?
Ive also always believed that,and its a sad situation all round.
Once again, rek, tallon, and Armstronglivs show they can screw up a thread by demonstrating how little they actually know about running and the factors surrounding it.
That's a rather remarkably baseless assertion.
How about sharing with us which factors are causing Americans to run 3:27, 7:22, and 12:45 now?
Or answer the question of the thread, "What new drugs are all these American runners taking?"
That dude obviously hit you where it hurts. Not that it will stop you and Army from engaging in your OCD behavior.
How about sharing with us which factors are causing Americans to run 3:27, 7:22, and 12:45 now?
Or answer the question of the thread, "What new drugs are all these American runners taking?"
That dude obviously hit you where it hurts. Not that it will stop you and Army from engaging in your OCD behavior.
I'm sure this personal jab, and my alleged pain, is relevant to no one.
I can accept that there are things I don't know -- isn't that what these discussion threads are all about? Learning things you don't know from others? Yet what did he mean about what I don't actually know about running and the factors surrounding it? He didn't really say.
One thing no one seems to know about running: What are the new drugs that can do for Americans what the old drugs never did just two years ago?
Talking of "pure speculation", you've cited the manufacturers' pr about the tracks but what does that translate to in times? I daresay the manufacturers would have said the same things about the tracks El G set his (still standing) records on. If tracks are better today why are his records still on the books?
Illegal drug manufacturers don't post marketing pr but you can bet they are selling something that works or they would be going out of business.
Tracks ARE better, dear science-denier.
Better? How? What makes them better than what was available when El G set his world marks? If he was running on inferior tracks then that suggests he was at another level from the best today - they aren't in the same class. Really?
Talking of "pure speculation", you've cited the manufacturers' pr about the tracks but what does that translate to in times? I daresay the manufacturers would have said the same things about the tracks El G set his (still standing) records on. If tracks are better today why are his records still on the books?
Illegal drug manufacturers don't post marketing pr but you can bet they are selling something that works or they would be going out of business.
Oh, self-deluded one. I'm not citing manufacturer's PR, but talking about athletes' PRs.
Back to addressing the main point, aren't you the resident self-appointed PR spokesman for the power of drugs? Where are your expert answers about drugs? Some unnamed -- but of course illegal for added dramatic effect -- drug manufacturers are selling some unnamed drugs that somehow "works" to provide some unknown benefit to some unknown buyers? Woah, TMI. But is that the very best you can do? I have no doubt that local amateur gym-rat posers worldwide are keeping steroid and creatine and protein supplement manufacturers in business.
But here we are talking about 3:27, 7:22, and 12:45 American runners. Tell us about the new drugs in the last 2-3 years that have enabled these American performances.
How deep is your mind? Your shallow one-track mind is still focused only on tracks, rather than talking about the confluence of many factors. It is not just tracks that have changed over the last few years and decades, but also shoes, bi-carb, wavelights, and even training.
And unlike you imagined, I didn't cite the manufacturer. I provided quotes from "a principal research engineer in the School of Materials Science and Engineering" at Georgia Tech University and from a coach to three Olympic Gold medalists.
Mondo Tracks were used in Atlanta, Georgia at the 1996 Olympics, so it is likely they said something similar nearly 30 years ago in El G's day. Tracks have undergone decades of engineering and manufacturing development and research since then. Mondo tracks have been in place since 1972, and more than 300 world records were set on them since -- before the 2024 Paris Olympics.
You can bet that Mondo is selling something that works or they would be going out of business.
Mondo tracks have been available for over fifty years - as you say. That is still the formula for tracks today. So tracks are not the reason athletes are now suddenly getting faster en masse. If you think the reason is tracks then you must be able to quantify the improvements they enable, since the "data" will naturally be available. So where is it?
Unlike tracks and other forms of running technology, drugs are constantly being developed, as they are an offshoot from developments in medicine as well as sports. This process is continuous but not definitively measurable, as it is clandestine. It is one of the reasons why antidoping can't keep up with doping; they often don't know what they are testing for and it is also often masked. When that is the climate surrounding doped sports you can bet your bottom dollar it is producing results for athletes or the practice would have long ago disappeared.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
That dude obviously hit you where it hurts. Not that it will stop you and Army from engaging in your OCD behavior.
I'm sure this personal jab, and my alleged pain, is relevant to no one.
I can accept that there are things I don't know -- isn't that what these discussion threads are all about? Learning things you don't know from others? Yet what did he mean about what I don't actually know about running and the factors surrounding it? He didn't really say.
One thing no one seems to know about running: What are the new drugs that can do for Americans what the old drugs never did just two years ago?
Since supershoes have been available for some years now and tracks are still made much the same way as when Mondo was introduced, and every variation in training has been tried, there is only one factor left that might explain a sudden recent elevation in performances across the board. We know there are drugs throughout the sport and these are constantly being developed. We don't have to know what the actual drugs are that are being used - because their origin and their use is being concealed - but we know they will be present and can make a difference. When the other factors listed above are neutral Occam's Razor says doping is the factor that is the most likely explanation for sudden across the board increases in performances.
Since supershoes have been available for some years now and tracks are still made much the same way as when Mondo was introduced, and every variation in training has been tried, there is only one factor left that might explain a sudden recent elevation in performances across the board. We know there are drugs throughout the sport and these are constantly being developed. We don't have to know what the actual drugs are that are being used - because their origin and their use is being concealed - but we know they will be present and can make a difference. When the other factors listed above are neutral Occam's Razor says doping is the factor that is the most likely explanation for sudden across the board increases in performances.
You assume too many things in your self-serving process of elimination which ultimately concludes the assumptions. These other factors are not neutral. Of course shoes are constantly being developed since their first introduction on the roads, and subsequent introduction on the tracks. Similarly tracks built by Mondo are also constantly being developed, since the days of Atlanta Olympics, and since 1972. Bi-carb gels are new. The new shoes not only enable faster racing, but enable more training and faster recovery. This means new training variations not tried before due to high risk of injury (or tried and leading to injury).
You are right to concede that you don't know the actual drugs being used. You don't know if drugs have changed in the last 2 years, or 20 years. But best of all, you don't even know drugs are being used at all, by these record-setting Americans.
Occam's razor, as well as all the supporting peer-reviewed and anecdotal shoe data, favors shoes over drugs.
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In music, the notes are not new, and have existed for centuries, if not millennia, and yet we are still finding new ways to combine them and make new music.
Combining them in new ways isn't improving on what Bach, Beethoven and Mozart achieved centuries ago - merely producing different music. Your analogy works against you.
Apparently others consider that Chopin, among many others, are the obvious candidates for the best. Bach and Mozart have yet to be mentioned, and Beethoven was only mentioned once as "undefeated in piano battles of his time".
You should stick to irrelevant arguments about apostrophes.
From the Mondo website (not that you believe in science). But probably words like "biomechanics" are too complex for you:
PARIS 2024 OLYMPIC AND PARALYMPIC GAMES From 1976 to Paris 2024, MONDO revolutionized the concept of athletics tracks, transforming them into avant-garde flooring, thanks to studies and research based on biomechanics.
