Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

I posted about this in the strava group but I’m exactly the same. Ran a 17:45 (30s+ PB) and did my 1km reps no quicker than 4:00min/km. It’s a trippy experience and setting out on that 5km TT I was worried but at about 3km in I could tell I had it. I live in a sub-tropical climate though so this would be a factor.

I am in really similar shape (recent 17:48, looking to run 17:30 in a race soon) and decided to hit the suggested paces but do the reps by time instead. So I hit 3:43/km-3:47/km but do 8x3 mins instead of 8x1k. Which works out to somewhere just over 800 meters. Because yeah, doing 8x1k at 3:43 is a bit too hard for me to repeat 3x per week.

Maybe someone else can explain this better, but you're running your intervals way too hard. They're not supposed to be 5K race pace.

See the poster above you.

That's crazy you ran no faster than 6:25 min/mile. Maybe I am going too fast at 6:10. What is your weekly workout volume?

That's a great testimonial to this training...

Did 11x2 yesterday, sub-T at 7:20-ish pace 2 min on, float to 8:40-8:55 1 min off, did it by feel. I know they say to really do it by feel and not HR (as noted by many upthread).

Eventually hoping to build to 10x3 min. 3 days a week. Right now I'm going to do 11x2 for 2 days, then go from there and make the intervals longer over time.

EZ running otherwise, 45-55 mpw, 15-16 mpw long run but no more than that.

This was my post in the group:

“Last year my 5km was 18:51 and I stumbled upon this group. I switched over to 2 Sub T/2 easy/2 gym, eventually added in a 3rd easy and with pretty good adherence to the method over the previous 3 months, got my 5km down to 18:22 in June/2024. This was on
50km/week with 16km at SubT.
Following the advice of the group, in July 22nd this year I moved up to 3 SubT/3 easy/2 gym for a total of 60km/week with 20km at SubT. I rotated the standard sets of 0.4km, 1km, 1.6km and 2km reps with slightly smaller sessions. I did this for only 2 weeks and then smashed my HM PB by 3 min + for a 1:24:13 with no long run. I then ran a 5km a week later and ran a 17:46.”

I should update by saying I’ve now seen some workouts dip below 4 - most notably a 4 x 2km @ 3:58 av pace in carbon plates. I was hoping I was getting fitter, but in saying that, 2 days ago I did a 6 x 1km @ 3:58s, struggled through it, RPE was probs 8 and felt I overran, so go figure.

I hope you do well! It looks like you're building properly.

I did 8x2 today, 7:40 down to 6:55, 1 min recovery at 8:45-9:00, with w/u and c/d. The key is to be consistent--I'm seeing that now. I felt like I could have done more but held back plus I was running out of time and my goal is just to stay healthy. No use overdoing it!

5k pace for me at 17:48 was 3:34/km, quite a bit faster than I run that workout. The workout is supposed to be:

8-12 x 1k (3-4 min) at 12-15k w/ 60s rest

For a 17:48 5k runner 12k pace is ~3:43/km, 15k pace is ~3:47/km. So I aim to run my repeats in that range. I'm just saying doing a full km at the fastest end of the range is too hot to repeat over and over. But doing 3 mins at that pace is very reasonable. its a different way to modulate the workout to be recoverable. Remember threshold is a state not a pace.

Also an update, ran a slight pb in my race, 17:42, nothing to write home about but a pb is a pb.

Edit: And I'm willing to concede maybe I'm completely messing this up, just trying to do it based on the summary posts, what would you suggest doing for that workout (or similar)?

There is one thing that intrigues me about this method, and that is the time it takes to see results. Many have posted up, that they saw no improvement for up to 6 months, and then went and knocked circa 30 secs off their 5k time, This does surprise me, although no doubt some have responded sooner.

runningwritings.com

Marius Bakken in his own words: double threshold, lactate testing, altitude, periodization, and more

John Davis

Link:runningwritings.com/2024/09/marius-bak...

Some more words from the Bakken himself^

One interesting tidbit (among many) is that Bakken only run 3 days a week and primarily does 45/15 workouts which he's also written about here:

marathontrainingschedule.com

The #1 Best Running Workout to Improve Your Running

So what is the #1 best running workout ? Let me share with you one of the absolute best running workouts that you can do in ANY phase of your running plan.

Link:http://marathontrainingschedule.com/bl...

Does anyone have experience with 45/15 workouts? I like the idea of having something even faster than the 400m Sub-T reps but it seems hard to gauge the correct effort. I can't find much written about it. The interviewer says "45-15 is a workout many in Norway have heard of."

I just have little experience. The 15 sec is super short but strangely it helps well in keeping a good pace. But if you go too fast you will pay for it very quickly. Interesting exercise in my opinion.

I have done 4 x (5 x (45" / 15") / 45"). Having blocks of 5 repetitions helps mentally.

Just my experience, I don't say it is the proper way to do it.

I totally get the idea behind the “helps mentally” point, but just curious: As someone used to mostly 20-30’ LT blocks and 25-50’ sub-T, I’m wondering if anybody else feels out of sync in the first couple of minutes for a few shorter reps at this tempo pace. ?

I stand corrected.

Although with this method it's wise to err on the side of caution, so 3:47/km or slightly slower is advisable.

Good point on the 3min versus 1k rep. Sustainability is key.

What Pace or effort are the 45s? 5k pace?

do you stand or jog the 15s?

So, I made it through 3 workouts of 6 sub-threshold miles each last week. It was surprisingly doable, but not quite sustainable yet. The workouts themselves (4 x 1.5 miles, 6 x 1 mile, 12 x 800) went fine, but it took longer to recover from the second session and I needed a second easy day before the third workout. The problem wasn't fatigue, but persistent soreness in my hamstrings/glutes and I didn't want to push too close to the edge. So I think I can build up to it, but I'm not there yet.

"High volume, not high mileage" is an accurate description. It's really nice to be able to fit a workout into little more than an hour. It's a lot easier on family life than telling my wife that I'm heading out for a 20 miler that will take 3 hours or so. And I actually feel pretty good physically the rest of the day, instead of feeling wiped out afterwards.

One thing that will be an issue is trying to keep the sub-threshold volume to 25% of weekly volume. On six days, I was somewhere over 33% last week (18 miles sub-T and just over 50 total). So I also need to build up overall mileage, which honestly seems slightly more challenging than hitting the three sub-T workouts.

Since the challenge for me is recovering, I've had to cut back on lifting a lot. I'll try adding it back in once I reach a stable plateau in workout volume and weekly mileage.

How slow you can go and still get the benefits of the sub-T is something that has been of great interest to me. Sirpoc is definitely on the upper limit of the pace range. Quite frankly, the way that he does it, I think very few people could copy the paces. I believe he has run around 15:45 or so for 5k and just under 32 for 10k. He did mile reps last week with a few under 5:10. That’s right around 10k pace and incredibly close to 5k pace. He’s either due for some massive PBs or is just so strong from all the threshold work that his paces are really close together. Even his easy runs are sub-7 minute mile pace now. It’s been pretty cool to see. But again, I think most people who are in 15:45/32 flat shape would struggle to hit the paces that he does week in and week out for both easy and sub-T days.

Looking at this from the context of threshold training are these to be considered as one of the "X factor" workouts that Bakken has talked about? Something faster than threshold pace/effort that you would try once every 2 weeks or once every week max with the other faster work being threshold workouts as discussed in this thread?

Personally, I jog the 15 sec but I am not sure it would make a big difference, because the time you decelerate it is already few seconds and it is very short before the watch starts to beep 5 sec before starting again.

5k pace is I think a good pace to start with. If you can, you can go a bit faster at the end of the session. After few sessions you can adjust depending on the results.

Yes I’ve also noticed this. He also jogs his recoveries which makes this even more impressive. Will be interesting to see whether he comes out this season and can post a 15 low/ 31 low. Also agree with your other theory: as you become more experienced with Norwegian singles does the gap between your SubT and shorter race paces drop? Surely this translates to a stronger HM?