running fast = high muscular stress and risk of injury without proportional aerobic stimulus
might as well hit the gym and get some injury prevention work as well
Isn't a big part of doing strides to teach the body how to be relaxed whilst running fast? Strides shouldn't fatigue, strides shouldn't be a workout unto themselves, strides shouldn't induce stress. Maybe I'm wrong though...
Well, it's been a month so I figured I'd check back in. Haven't run another time trial but based on the comments here I decided to stick with the plan until the fall to see the experiment through. Haven't changed anything except. Just tried to pay more attention and make sure the easy days are as easy as they can be in the heat.
Honestly, it was pretty much just more of the same slog. This week we finally got a cool front. For context, the last three months running conditions most mornings have been around 75-85F and dewpoints 65-75F. This week a cold front came through (isn't sticking around unfortunately) and I've been running around 65-70F with dewpoints in the 55-60F.
The week after the 5k TT I was disappointed in (same ~20:55 result as one I ran in February) I ran my normal Thursday 7x1k w/ 1 minute rest:
I finished this morning's session out like a hummingbird. Felt like I could've run another 4 or 5 reps at the pace I finished interval 7 at (6:24/mile) or quicker. Breaths were easy and long, legs were light and quick, effort felt very moderate. Last rep 20 seconds faster than first and wasn't trying to press it at all, each one just kind ended up feeling looser than the last. My 3x2k on Tuesday was similarly strong.
It felt/feels like I'm inhabiting a completely different body.
I've looked at a few workouts from before I started on subT workout but it's hard to compare since I didn't really run anything at this effort, either above or below. At any rate, I don't think there's anyway I could've hacked todays paces on 1 minute rest at all, and certainly wouldn't have finished my cool down feeling like I could do it all over again.
Thanks to everyone who responded that my TT actually indicated improvement compared to when I started this all several month ago. I was quite concerned about the only goal I had set for the year (which was to improve at least somewhat on my 10k from last fall where I ran a 7:10/mile pace when I run it again in a couple month).
After this week I'm not super worried anymore even with more heat coming back into the forecast for a bit. I'm actually looking forward to tuning up in the cooler weather next month and running some race efforts to see where I'm at.
We might be living in a similar area - but I've had the same experience. Been doing tempos like 3x10min targeting roughly just under marathon heart rate (2.0-2.5 lactate, but I don't have a meter). Was getting worried the paces I was hitting were 30-40s off my target goal pace.
Cooler weather this week - although still not quite ideal race conditions - and the paces are much much closer, with heart rate and perceived effort level still tracking the same as previously.
Finally, a bit more than 10 years after have signed up on LRC my first post!
What got me here? -Masters athlete -Stagnating last years -Reflections on my training from last years
My are PBs all from 2019/20/21 with one expection. Last year when I accepted for myself the PBs might be over for this life I ran a half marathon PB in October. Sadly I got injured right after that and took my 6 months with running very little till was able again to run 4-5 times a week. I did cross train though a lot during fall and winter. And I spent quite some time looking for reasons how I got this unexpected PB on the half. The explanation and think to have found in my training logs. I always was on very good shape when training specifically for a half. After that often I also did run good 10km and 5km. But the more I then focussed on shorten distances (also tried two track season) did help me lowering my times significantly.
Als I recognized that continuous tempo/threshold runs were often the hardest for me. In training plans often I need manage to achieve as they were intended whereas I had no issues for the shorter intervals up to 1000m.
So last year I decided that I would try work on this weakness and incorporated one longer threshold (half marathon pace) run per week. That was probably one important element for the HM other than that I did not trained even too hard last summer.
During current season I decided to look out more specificly for ideas around threshold based training or training which would help me work on my "tempo endurance" deficit. I am closed to 50 and definetely on the slower side in this thread. Ran a 20:59 on 5000 track and my best parkrun this year only 21:45 or so on a very good course.
Stumbling on this thread 2-3 months ago and worked completely through it I started transitioning on the Sub-T concept mit July. In average I have done 2 Sub-T sessions a week. Had two races which has cost me 2 of those sessions each with taper and recovery after.
Will report on my progess here and on Strava. Next two weeks will be hard to follow exact structure as I have some races and will just easy runs in-between (or use races to go on Sub-T pace). So more datapoints on my current fitness to come. and from 2nd September week will to very consitent Sub-T block of 6-8 weeks and see how I respond to this.
I'm a few years older than you, and in the last few years I'd gotten in the habit of needing substantial tapers, even for 5K races. Since I started SubT-training, also in July, I've tried to find a more balanced approach. For the 5Ks so far, I've run a regular workout Monday, half the volume Wednesday, then backed off a few days before a 5K on Saturday, which gets me to 75% of weekly workout volume (including the race) and maintains the stimulus of 3 quality days. I'm recovering quicker, so that I was able to run the next workout on Monday after the 5K at full volume, although the pace was a bit slower. For this week's 10K, I'm tapering a bit more (75% volume Monday, 38% Wednesday), but it's also my last chance for a serious race this year. I'll update with more results next week.
-Wednesday session as normal (4x1600 = 7.5 minutes). -Thursday off -Friday easy -Saturday easy -Sunday 5k race
Thursday I took off cause me legs felt like they could need a day off. did 7/7 days the last weeks, not sure if this sustainably for me. will see. After my 10k two weeks ago legs felt really good on the day after. So I went out for an easy run. But then legs felt completely trashed two days after race. Will take off complete after 10k and longer in the future.
Also I like to combine long-run and 3rd SubT session. I jog 6km to my local parkun on Saturday, do my 23-24 minutes threshold parkrun and jog back home 6km. Ending up with 17km total and then Sundays short easy again. With intervals I am still experimenting. I have a cinder track nearby and go there whenever I want. so far went for 400/800/1600/2000. longer intervals I also do off the track.
Seems like this thread has been going a long time now. Unfortunately, doesn't look like sirpoc posts much here now? But I was wondering if he could update on his original fantastic posts, what he's learned, what he's changed. I suspect he's not the kind of guy who would simply have kept things totally identical, seems like he is smart and learns from what works, what doesn't work.
To Jonathan who made the podcast, nice summary. Why don't maybe you reach out to sirpoc? Maybe we could cover some of these things, a year on etc. I'm kind of fascinated by the whole story and still to have someone very normal to look at for inspiration, rather than worrying what Jakob does. I say this as the thread has become quite cluttered with interesting stuff, but sometimes has veered away from the heart of the method.
Anyway, just an idea. Also, thanks to everyone who has posted their own updates. It's very interesting to see that more often than not, the people who have stuck to it, have really improved!
Hope the weather cools off for you regardless of where you are and you can keep seeing the progress.
Today's high is back in the upper 80s and we cruise right into the 90s tomorrow through the rest of the week. This morning was the last of the nice weather (70F/58F Dewpoint when I started).
I finally got the signal I was hoping to see after starting this experiment in May.
On the weekend I normally do 10 miles, 3 warmup rolling right into 4 continuous subT miles, and then 3 cool down for my 3rd subT workout of the week. Paces have normally been around 7:30/mile, end of the subT normally shows 165-168 BPM (LTHR 172).
Things today just felt good and moderate so I just kept going after 4 and finished a 10k at subT effort (did not press it) since this is the last cooler day for a while.
Previous 10k PR was last fall at around 44 minutes (7:10/mile pace) in 55F degree weather, all out effort, no HR data but I wanted to die at the end. Ran a 10k TT (mid 44 minutes) in similar weather in April, HR peaked at 178, again wanting to die.
Today's 10k during my subT effort: 42:30 (6:50/mile pace). During the extra 2+ miles my HR was between 164-168 the whole time, no extra drift upwards. Felt great at the end.
Probably overly optimistic but when I finished the subT portion I remember feeling like I could've kept that pace for another 4-5 miles if I wanted. 15 degrees warmer, 20 seconds faster pace, and just a way easier effort than my previous PR 10k. I actually had a 5k segment slightly faster than the 5k TT I was disappointed in last month with a max HR there .
Anyway, no more constant training updates from me here but I wanted to say thanks again to everyone for pointing out exactly how much of a difference temperature can play. I knew that heat would make everything harder, but had no clue it could be so dramatic. I was halfway ready to throw in the towel after seeing and feeling like there was no improvement over the last almost 4 months.
After only 1 week of cooler weather to actually see some progress it's such a relief to see that the needle was actually moving this whole time. I'm just gonna stick with it and throw in the occasional race this fall and winter.
Is it possible to have a high maximum heart rate of 194+ but a low threshold? At a 10km - 42 min race I had an avg of 176 hr, towards the end 180, but that was my max at the race, I had to catch my knees lol as if I had done a 5k anything above 180 is bearable for a short time 170+ is heavy and I breathe hard, have someone similar?
would not give too much on HR values, especially if you think that this seems to differ from normal. Just too many factors can go wrong. And if it was really above what you normally have could also be a sign of sickness rolling in.
I had a 5km road race last weekend and ended up with 21:00. This is absolutely ok as this was my fastest 5km race since approx 4 years and approx 1 minute faster than in May on comparable course!
This week and next week difficult to follow subT approach as I have 2 more races and won't do much inbetween. Did one subT session yesterday on a fun 5km relay race. And will do on subT session next week between two races.
But once those races are done I will do a 6 weeks training block before next 5km race/TT with 3 subT sessions per week! Will report back how that goes end of October.
Just a quick update from the beginning of this experiment. I have two more race times, an identical-to-the-second 5K (18:21) and a slightly disappointing 10K (call it 38 mid, adjusted for a long course). So that's where my fitness is for comparison's sake. I probably won't have another chance to race until spring at least, but I'm hoping to do 5K-HM next summer on similar or the same courses as recent races, which should give me a good sense of what this training can do.
A few more notes:
- I'm using a SubT-Easy-SubT-Easy-SubT-Long-Off schedule.
- Hitting 3 workouts a week seems like a key ingredient. Even at just 3-4 miles of volume at pace, the frequent stimulus hits different.
- I notice some cumulative fatigue with each workout, which may not be the goal. Or maybe stressing recoverability is the point? I'm still adjusting workouts and paces.
- Getting up to 4 miles of workout volume is useful, as it opens up the longer intervals (2K/3K). 3 x 2K has actually been one of the more difficult workouts, while 2 x 2mi has been fine. Go figure.
- At 12 miles of workout volume per week, I'm putting in more work at pace than in any of my previous race buildups and doing a higher percentage of up-tempo running.
- I wonder how much of the improvement is mechanical. According to Garmin, my weekly average steps per minute and stride length are noticeably higher. That's got to have some kind of effect.
- Without any races, I might try a steady-10K alternation workout once a month or so as a loose fitness check.
- I'm currently experimenting with 6 miles of total workout volume just to see what it's like. 3 x 2mi wasn't too bad. We'll see if it's sustainable.
Don't know if anyone is interested, or will believe me, but I try to go no faster than 6:10 pace in training and last week I did an official 5k race at 5:36 pace. I've been doing 30-35 mpw all summer, spread over 4 days. My powerof10 profile shows steady improvement at parkrun over the past 4 months with a slew of 17:30s and 40s. No one on my strava seems to care but for me the improvement has been remarkable as I am running less than before and doing workouts slower, yet consistently getting faster.
Don't know if anyone is interested, or will believe me, but I try to go no faster than 6:10 pace in training and last week I did an official 5k race at 5:36 pace. I've been doing 30-35 mpw all summer, spread over 4 days. My powerof10 profile shows steady improvement at parkrun over the past 4 months with a slew of 17:30s and 40s. No one on my strava seems to care but for me the improvement has been remarkable as I am running less than before and doing workouts slower, yet consistently getting faster.
Do you run the sub-threshold workouts in the same shoes that you race in? 6:10 in trainers vs. 6:10 in super shoes is decent difference. The 6:10 in trainers might be 6:00 in super shoes.
Is everyone doing strength/weight training? on S/T days?
Never done any strength training or a single stride ever. Some people swear by it but I've managed 3 sessions a week or 2 sessions a week + a race for every week for probably at least 18 months now.
That's not saying don't do it. But a bit like the super shoe discussion in the Strava group. Not doing it won't make your legs fall off or injure you so you will never be able to run again.
Don't know if anyone is interested, or will believe me, but I try to go no faster than 6:10 pace in training and last week I did an official 5k race at 5:36 pace. I've been doing 30-35 mpw all summer, spread over 4 days. My powerof10 profile shows steady improvement at parkrun over the past 4 months with a slew of 17:30s and 40s. No one on my strava seems to care but for me the improvement has been remarkable as I am running less than before and doing workouts slower, yet consistently getting faster.
Do you run the sub-threshold workouts in the same shoes that you race in? 6:10 in trainers vs. 6:10 in super shoes is decent difference. The 6:10 in trainers might be 6:00 in super shoes.
No I wore the vaporfly for the race and endorphin speed 3 for everything else. However, I wore the vaporfly for races in the past and never managed sub 18, despite running much more than I am now.