Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

The same way that I always have.

It's OK to say you don't know ...

Does lactate production increase when running in hot/humid conditions? If so, what is the science behind that?

Is the rest still 60 secs for the longer reps, e.g. 3*10 mins?

Check summary's post:

Relative to pace obviously yes, relative to effort (if you can effectively normalize that) I'm not sure. I believe it's mostly just a matter having to divert additional blood and energy to cooling instead powering muscle contractions -so if you are running a similar effort the lactate numbers should be similar. Though maybe the stress response to the heat itself could lead towards more carbs vs fat metabolism and more lactate production.

If you are actually testing there's also the practical issue that your samples are more likely to get contaminated by sweat -which will artificially spike the readings.

I haven’t tested this but I wonder if you had the same runner do 60 minute easy run in 95F versus 60 minute easy run in 48F (both runs at the same pace and on the same course) whether lactate will be any higher in the heat? Heart rate would certainly be higher.

This is this first paper that popped up with a “heat effects on lactate threshold” google search:

“However, at the end of the test (225 watts) in the HEAT heart rate was 8 beats/min, ventilation rate was 6 L/min and the rate of perceived exertion (Borg scale) was 13% higher than in the NEUTRAL trial (all p<0.05). Similarly at the highest workload blood lactate level was 30% higher during HEAT than in the NEUTRAL environment (4.6 ± 1.0 vs 3.5 ± 0.6 mmol/ L; respectively, p<0.05). In the HEAT the rate of blood lactate accumulation increased and lactate threshold took place at 175 watts while it took place at 200 watt in the NEUTRAL trial. Due to the increase in heart rate in the HEAT, heart rate at lactate threshold was similar in the HEAT and NEUTRAL environments (150 ± 1 beats/min).”

Unrelated to the above study, I’ve heard Dr Geoff Burns say that heat is the largest waste product in exercise, which from a physics standpoint makes a lot of sense and is an interesting way to think about it.

person A makes progress on 40-45 mpw.

person B challenges that plan and progress as inefficient, yielding meager results relative to effort.

person C answers B, saying the results seem better in context and likely to continue — and thereby improve the yield of what’s gained at that effort.

Even though A is running a marathon, it seems unlikely that his mpw will get a lot higher in the near term, and maybe not higher than 60-65 over the next couple of years.

So your answer is to say, “Yeah, look at the problems faced by runners at >80 mpw”?

???

Yeah, those people are morans.

I’ve heard from a handful of people that, if they only do threshold and nothing faster, they feel “stuck in threshold” and struggle in races. If you follow Gabriela DeBues-Stafford on Strava, she talks about this in her most recent workout. She plans on keeping track work (sounds like 200s or short reps at mile pace) in her rotation. I’m wondering if frequent strides and frequent races will fix this “stuck in threshold” issue? Or it could be something different that is contributing to the struggle with racing faster. Maybe these athletes feel flat from doing their threshold too fast. Gabriela DeBues-Stanford did a double threshold on a Tuesday, felt like trash on Wednesday and Thursday but still did another double threshold on Thursday, which she had to cut short because her lactate was too high. Obviously this thread is not about double thresholds but I think a lot of people are a bit nervous about neglecting fast work in this program.

If her lactate is too high she's running her workouts too fast. Of course she will feel like trash the day after.

Curious if this study (will read to verify) accounts for the concentrating effect of plasma volume lost to sweating?

John - did you run any races during the time that you were doing the program described in this post? If so, how’d did they go?

I'll weigh in on my experience. 41M (5'11", 150 lbs), ran in XC way back in high school (slow for the team, ~18:50 5k), decided to start running again 2 winters ago, don't really race, did a 10k in 44:00 last fall.

Was running 30-40 MPW with 1 Daniels Style hard session, a long run, and a bunch of random Z2-3 miles. Was making some progress (trying to build to 40-50 MPW) but was feeling sore quiet often after the hard stuff. Got sick in February and tried to run through it, burnt myself out and took a few weeks off.

After building back up in March/April to 40-50 MPW doing Z1-Z2 stuff, I stumbled on this thread and the idea of less hard stuff and more sub-T to stay on my feet seemed appealing so I decided to give it a go and stick to the plan for 10-12 weeks and see what happens. Weeks have all been the same. Last LTHR test was about 173, kept Max HR at the end of the subT workouts closer to 168-170.

M - Easy 6 Miles
Tu - 3x2k (~7:15/mile) w/ 1 minute recovery + WU/CU
W - Easy 6 Miles
Th - 7x1k (~7:00/mile) w/ 1 minute recovery + WU/CU
F - Easy 6 Miles
S - Easy 6 Miles
Sun - Long 10 Miles(3 Easy, 4 @ 7:30 pace, 3 Easy)

Basically, 50 Miles a week, 12 miles at sub-T (20%), All the rest done in upper Z1/lower Z2 (9-10 minute pace), repeated since May 1.

Did a 5k TT on February 15 just before getting sick:

36 deg F out - 20:57 (6:44 Pace), Avg HR 172, Max HR 179, Splits 6:35, 6:51, 6:48.

Finally ran another one yesterday:

82 deg F out - 20:56 (6:44 Pace), Avg HR 168, Max 175, Splits 6:29, 6:47, 6:57.

Needless to say, I'm pretty bummed. I was hoping for a strong signal that the work had some effect.

Thoughts:
- I feel like I'm generally fitter, I've jumped up and additional 15-20 MPW and I feel much stronger on the larger workload. Very rarely sore, fine to repeat sub-T workouts 3x a week. Way different experience than Jan/February.
- I feel like I'm really comfortable running in the 7-7:30/mile pace now.
- That 5k felt way different than the hard running from over the winter. Almost Like my body doesn't remember how pull hard and maintain it, I ended up falling back to my workout pace by the end of it.
- If I squint real hard I could say it was 40F hotter and way more humid out and I ran the same time (same course) at 4 BPM lower HR (even though I faded).

I don't know if it's just the heat or that I haven't really pressed myself in almost 3 months and I forgot what time trial/race pace effort feels like or if this type of work is just not the stimulus I respond to.

Was there any progress here? I don't know. I'm tempted to stick it out another few weeks and maybe run another 5k or two to see if it's just a matter of knocking the cobwebs out of my legs.

Heat and humidity is a pretty big impact. VDOT calculator puts your 82 degree performance as a 20:11 in ideal temps. That doesn’t account for humidity either

Someone else asked about this a few posts back. The first race/TT in awhile while doing this training feels like crap for me. 5k pace felt like a full on sprint most of the way, can’t deal with the lactate bath of the last mile well at all. Ran another TT same course a few weeks later, felt way better and ran 30 secs faster. There’s a lot to be said for “remembering how to hurt” at race pace. I think a race or at least a 3-5k TT every 3-5 weeks is very valuable with this training.

I’d at least keep at it until cooler weather hits in the fall. Between that and having some more TT efforts under your belt I bet you’ll see some notable time drops.

I wouldn’t necessarily say “just the heat,” but I’d expect it to play a role.

Also: Following different training methods, I’ve done 5k as a fitness test a couple of times, been disappointed with the results, then found myself still on track with my anticipated fitness in races 1-3 months later. Obviously, I can’t say whether that might be the case for you, but for me it was also alongside feeling fitter and stronger overall and over time, but just in a way that didn’t come out in one race (also hot and humid for one of those, but my time was slow even factoring that in).

Are your sleep and nutrition good?

That's interesting. Got a link to the temp adjusted VDOT calculator?

If I was looking for silver linings, about 1-2 minutes after finishing this time trail, I felt basically like I did after finishing a subT workout. Recovery seemed a lot easier and I feel completely normal today when I finished my easy miles. It's been 3 months but I feel like the February run took a lot more out of me both after finishing and the next day or two.

I completely agree with the notion that I don't remember how to make it hurt at the moment. I was trying to push but just fell back into what was comfortable by the end of the run. Maybe the periodic TT/Race Pace stimulus should be treated as part of the training rather than the end point?

Cooler, less humid weather should roll in around September. High's here at 90-100 degrees with dewpoints in the 70-80s at the moment. It's hard to see the forest for the trees through the haze but I could stick it out for a while longer to see if anything shakes loose.

Sleep and nutrition are good. Sleep particularly is actually way better than over the winter training. Less soreness makes it easier to get comfortable at the end of the day.

Maybe I'll put a 5k TT for every 3rd week or so to see if I can remember how to actually run a race and see if there isn't any improvement from repeating the experience. It felt like a completely different type of running and I really felt like I punted it even though I'm handling my workouts easier than when I started (even in the heat/humidity). I guess I was hoping to see a clear signal that my fitness had actually improved beyond just feeling stronger.

One of the things that is often overlooked from this method and, in my opinion, one of the key reasons why this works for Sirpoc is that he races frequently. At least once a month. If you do this method without racing for months on end, it will take a few races to get into it. But once a month seems to be the minimum unless you are doing the hills instead of the third sub-T.