Third Kenyan runner in 10 days fails doping test

now ive heard everything wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

Either post-1990 non-Africans used, and ran slow, or they did not use, and ran slow. I only concluded they ran slow, regardless, as a basis for further discussion.

That's not a fact at all, it's sheer nonsense. All of it.

+1

rekrunner wrote:

I would say it's not correct to look at one (or two) individual performance(s). Not even with confirmed doping cases?

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

Looking at one individual is not a basis for forming a general rule, but a specific cherry-picked example.

It's not a "basis for forming a general rule" - it's anecdotal examples with confirmed dopers running fast times. No different than when Boulami set the steeple WR in 2002 glowing on EPO. You may call that "cherry-picking" but the facts are that he set a WR, and tested positive IC for EPO.

rekrunner wrote:

In any case, figures like 1.3% and 1.5%, as the "best" examples, are very small, especially when throwing around numbers like 3-6% and 5-10% for everyone.

We don't know if these are the "best examples" or not, but they are facts with confirmed Morrocan 02-vector doping cases matched up with your pre-90s top-5 averages. And when does 1.3% - 1.5% performance benefit become "very small" with top elites? Mourhit was ~22 secs faster than the pre-90s average...that's significant in a 10,000m, is it not?

Not being deeply knowledgeable about distance, I would like to ask what the point of this thread has become.

Is the contention that essentially all of the top Kenyans are using/have used?

Is it that essentially all of the top Kenyan times were/are boosted, and that rEPO is responsible for most of that boost?

It is difficult to decipher this discussion from outside, because there seems to be much water under the bridge between rekrunner and others. I think I know Canova's position, that EPO doesn't work on "highly-trained super-elites".

Nothing but total respect for you Renato, however with the depth of 2.03, 2.04 Kenyans running the marathon and your assumption that they are all clean, how is it that one or two have not doped to take a gamble for the WR or to be no1 and run a 2.00 or 2.01? Seeing how likely this seems leads me to the conclusion that they must me an element of PEDs to get to the current ceiling of performance.

If all those sub-2:05 runners would be clean, and doping is so easy and powerful, why does no one start doping, runs a 2:01 and makes millions?

Obvious answer: most of them are already doping (to be competitive).

For answering to one question about the antidoping tests of Sondre Moen, in 2018 he had the following tests :

* Jan 25 : Test in Iten (Blood and Urine) - Testing Authority (TA) : IAAF-AIU -

Sample Collection Authority : IDTM (International Doping Tests) - Lab for analysis : STOCKHOLM

* Mar 9 : Test in Iten (Blood and Urine) - TA : ADNO (Antidoping Norway) -

Sample Collection Authority : ADAK (Antidoping Kenya) - Lab : BLOEMFONTEIN (SAF)

* Mar 14 : Test in Iten (Blood and Urine) - TA : IAAF-AIU

SCA : IDTM - Lab for Analysis : STOCKHOLM

* Apr 6 : Test in Iten (Blood and Urine) - TA : ADNO

SCA : ADAK - Lab for Analysis : BLOEMFONTEIN

May 31 : Test in Robassomero (Italy) (Blood and Urine) - TA : IAAF-AIU

SCA : IDTM - Lab for Analysis : LAUSANNE (SUI)

Jun 6 : Test in Oslo (Blood and Urine) - TA : ADNO

SCA : ADNO - Lab for Analysis : OSLO

Jun 13 : Test in Robassomero (Italy) (Blood and Urine) - TA : IAAF - AIU

SCA : CLEARIDIUM A/S - Lab for Analysis : ROME

* Jul 29 : Test in Sestriere (Italy) (Blood and Urine) - TA : IAAF - AIU

SCA : CLEARIDIUM A/S - Lab for Analysis : ROME

So, from the 1st of January, Sondre had 8 blood tests and 11 tests for Urine only (I didn't put them in the list).

The tests with * are during training period in altitude.

How you can see, there are several agencies testing the athletes : IAAF - AIU (Authority Integrity Unit), the National Agencies (ADNO for Norway, ADAK for Kenya) and in some case, because of the big number of athletes to test in the world, there are PRIVATE AGENCIES which have agreement with WADA (This is the case of Clearidium in Italy).

We can find the same situation with the best Kenyans. The most part of tests are organized by IAAF-AIU (including all the MANDATORY tests for Kenyans and Ethiopians competing as invited athletes in the Major Marathons, that have a budget for testing the athletes and pay the cost of tests, travels and accommodation for the testers), some directly from ADAK, that normally is responsible for collecting the samples.

All the athletes in top 30 in the world, in every event, must inform IAAF about their stay EVERY DAY. They can chose a "window" of one hour every day, where they need to be found at the address they gave, otherwise there is a "miss test" if the officials go to the athlete's address and don't find him/her.

Since the most part of Kenyan athletes chose the time between 8pm and 9pm as 'window" (because is the only time they are almost sure to be at home or in the camp), testers go to test the athletes at any time of the day (so, out of the rule) because Kenyan in whereabout are so many that, respecting the time of the window, practically couldn't be possible to carry out too many tests. This means that the most part of athletes could refuse to be tested at the time used by the officials, but normally don't do this, accepting the test at any time of the day.

From 2016, the average number of tests for the Biological Passport (so, with blood) in one year can vary, for the top Kenyan athletes, from a minimum of 6 to a maximum of 10, the most part under the Testing Authority of IAAF-AIU, while about 40% of the tests are carried out by ADAK.

IAAF-AIU also in the past sent a pool of testers in African Countries for testing the top athletes, not national, there for training. This means that the idea of some LR poster (athletes going Africa for escaping tests) is based on their absolutely ignorance about procedures, reality and numbers, like the idea that in the past Kenyans didn't have blood tests.

There was effectively a small number of blood tests from 2010 (I remember 3 times for Mosop, 5 times for Florence Kiplagat, 3 times for Jairus Birech, 2 times for Irene Cheptai among the others, number that in 6 years is not very high), but to say there the tests didn't exist is not true, and now the situation is very much different for everybody trains in Kenya, both domestic or foreigner top athletes.

Ronald Kwemoi

I advice every elite sporter from your level to take minimum 1 multi vitamin tabl per day from start training

You need anti-oxydants to strengthen the wall of the red cell. So take as said 1 Multi vitamin tabl per day PLUS 1 anti-oxydant f.i. Vit C or Vit E extra

Conclusion: optimal white blood = immunity situation. Use supplementation as adviceed before

Magnesia is important in muscle-nerve function and basic metabolism. Your value is moderate. I advice to take extra vitamin tabl when you have an intensity period and when you train in hot weather

Supplements Supplements Start with, see text above:

multi vitamins + anti-oxydants = Vit E OR Vit C (Vit E OR C because of low hapto and high bili)

Mg in hot weather and intensive periods

Omega 6

He's lying wrote:

Ronald Kwemoi

I advice every elite sporter from your level to take minimum 1 multi vitamin tabl per day from start training

You need anti-oxydants to strengthen the wall of the red cell. So take as said 1 Multi vitamin tabl per day PLUS 1 anti-oxydant f.i. Vit C or Vit E extra

Conclusion: optimal white blood = immunity situation. Use supplementation as adviceed before

Magnesia is important in muscle-nerve function and basic metabolism. Your value is moderate. I advice to take extra vitamin tabl when you have an intensity period and when you train in hot weather

Supplements Supplements Start with, see text above:

multi vitamins + anti-oxydants = Vit E OR Vit C (Vit E OR C because of low hapto and high bili)

Mg in hot weather and intensive periods

Omega 6

Give us your name and surname, and then you can accuse Renato of lying.

Thank you Renato for going against all the hate here.

I really appreciate your posts.

Your question to me is pleonastic : of course, if you start from the idea that doping can give 4 minutes of advantage, you can ask "Why some of the athletes running 2:05 clean doesn't try to take EPO for running 2:01 ?" and your answer is "Because they are athletes for 2:09 clean, already doping for running 2:05".

My answer, instead, is very different : "Maybe some athlete already running 2:05 clean understands that with EPO can't have any advantage, and there is no reason to risk the career for reaching the same time you can achieve with training only".

You continue to show me examples of athletes having their PB when using doping.

Now, I give you some name who was doped, and AFTER coming back, with a high number of controls from WADA (always clean) was able to improve.

One example is WILSON ERUPE. He was caught for doping on 4th Jan 2013. In 2012, supposing he was on EPO, he ran Seoul Marathon in 2:05:37. Coming back after the ban, he improved his PB, again in Seoul, in 2016, running 2:05:13.

Another is MATHEW KISORIO, who frequently is used as example of the advantages of doping.

He was banned after a test in competition (National Championships) on 14th Jun 2012. At that time, he had 2 marathons only, 2:10:58 in NY 2011 (7th position) and 2:18:15 in Boston 2012 (10th position).

After the ban, he ran in 2:06:33 in Valencia 2015 (2nd position) and in 2:06:36 this year in Paris (2nd position), showing very much better shape than before taking EPO.

We start every comment from two opposite positions :

You believe not possible running fast without doping, and clearly overrate the effects of EPO on the performances.

I KNOW possible running very fast totally clean, and don't give any role of improvement to the blood doping, in spite of what some scientists can say after studying different level of subjects, of what you can think without any specific experience of training with top runners.

I also KNOW that, in more short distances, it's not possible to run at the personal hypothetical best (totally clean), reaching the same level of muscle strength they can reach taking steroids, and in fact when I speak about doping NOT WORKING I speak for EPO only, and not other substances.

The last thing, I want to reply that poster who calls me a lier when I say I don't want my athletes use supplements.

1) I don't see any ETHIC and MORAL difference between who takes an illegal substance, and who takes something legal, IF THE REASON IS THE SAME. Some substance that today is illegal, years ago was legal, and maybe in some year we can see at creatine, for example, like doping. If an athlete takes the legal creatine for having similar effect of steroids, I don't see any difference between him and who takes steroids, because HE TRIES TO HAVE AN EXTERNAL AID.

2) But I don't want my athletes can look at some external aid, that during their career can, step by step, reduce the self confidence, instead increasing the confidence in the medicine/supplement/product he uses.

3) The line between LEGAL and ILLEGAL substances is very thin. Athletes who were, at my eyes, without suspicions (for example Tyson Gay), in spite to have a scientific support (that African don't have), step by step went of the side of doping, because of the mentality to look everywhere for having some support. I don't want that a vitamin becomes multivitamin and then a mix of substances that is difficult to have under control.

When I was the Technical Scientific Director of FIDAL (Italian Federation), we had a case like this with Andrea Longo, 800m among the best in the world (1'43"74). Suddenly, and immediately before WCh 2001 in Edmonton, he was found positive for Nandrolone. He explained to the Federation that only he took BAA (aminoacids) from the top Company in the World (Ultimate) that was his sponsor. The Italian Federation spent more than 20,000 Euros buying the same supplement in more than 10 big European Cities, in different Countries, and sent all the supplements, in their original package, to the Lab of Koeln (Colonia) in Germany, for being tested by Manfred Donike, who was the head of the IAAF Antidoping.

After some months, we had the results : 27% of ALL THE SUPPLEMENTS WERE POLLUTED with Nandrolone.

Longo took 2 years ban, but he was recognized in "bona fide", and for him IAAF gave the opportunity to have still 2 weeks of time after the official dead line for the standards for WCh 2003 in order to run the limit.

Longo went in the Court against the Company, and won his trials.

The Company went to the Court with an allegation against unknown people for sabotage, for cleaning its image.

After that episode, I decided that NEVER my athletes had to take any supplement, especially in Africa, where the most part come from Asian Countries where there is not the MUST of listing all the components in the official way.

rekrunner wrote:

Oh that's right, some of you felt we should compare North Africans to their own personal reference, thinking that a common reference for all groups was somehow incorrect.

While I presume you correctly measured the gain, recall again this is a measure of top progress from all sources, and not necessarily a measure of EPO effect. EPO is by no means a single controlled variable.

By calculating from a slower reference, you are also partly measuring the lack of depth and maturity in the small North African population pre-1990s.

Subway Surfers wrote:

Off the top of my head this is an average of 13:15.6 or a gain of 25.5s or 3.4%

Excellent spin Rek, but it is pretty obvious that epo was the big driver of the explosion of elite runners coming from North Africa after 1990. Sounds like you are covering yourself by speculating at other drugs, I thought you were opposed to speculation?

So you are denying you wrote on Ronald Kwemoi's blood test results that he should take four different supplements? Also that you said that you advise every athletes to take a multi-vitamin? You also seem more than open to iron supplements as well and possibly thyroid supplements, just that these were not needed in this particular case. I am not speculating, I have the proof in my hands. I don't see any ethic or moral difference between somebody who would lie about his athletes taking supplements and somebody who would lie about his athletes taking EPO.

My dear, this is not something coming from myself.

These are the advices of a doctor in Nederland, after making a complete check-up to Ronald, that had some problem in one hamstring.

This is an investigation in Nederland, made on 28th June 2017, soon after running 3'30"89 in Nairobi and before Paris DL.

How you can see, in Nederland they use different setting for Hg. The Hg of Ronald was 11.3, that in the normal system is about 18.6, and his Hct was about 53.

At the end of the investigation, the doctor suggested to take Vit E or Vit C, Omega 3 and Mg in hot water.

This was what the doctor suggested, but I told him to take only Mg in hot water, for avoiding some cramp he had in his hamstrings. Few days later, he had the stress fracture in the 3rd part of the left tibia, that lasted for almost one year (he is again in training from one month only).

Before accusing somebody to be a liar, is better you can know all the reality and think two times before defaming people.

"He's lying", you were lying. Now get out.

Thank you Renato!

So Anti Doping Kenya sends it's blood tests to Bloemfontein, which lacks WADA accreditation.

It looks like Moen is being target tested like Rupp, Ritz and Jager. I wonder why?

Yes the clean Justin Gatlin was a lot faster than the doped version.

2018 10.03 -0.7 Ostrava (CZE) 13 JUN 2018

2017 9.92 -0.8 London (GBR) 05 AUG 2017

2016 9.80 +1.6 Eugene, OR (USA) 03 JUL 2016

2015 9.74 +0.9 Doha (QAT) 15 MAY 2015

2014 9.77 +0.6 Bruxelles (BEL) 05 SEP 2014

2013 9.85 -0.3 Moskva (RUS) 11 AUG 2013

2012 9.79 +1.5 London (GBR) 05 AUG 2012

2011 9.95 +1.3 Eugene, OR (USA) 24 JUN 2011

2010 10.09 +0.9 Rovereto (ITA) 31 AUG 2010

2005 9.88 +0.4 Helsinki (FIN) 07 AUG 2005

2004 9.85 +0.6 Athina (GRE) 22 AUG 2004

2003 9.97 +1.3 Zürich (SUI) 15 AUG 2003

2001 10.08 0.0 Eugene, OR (USA) 02 JUN 2001

2000 10.36 +0.7 Raleigh (USA) 17 JUN 2000

PERFORMANCE WIND PLACE DATE

2016 19.75 +1.6 Eugene, OR (USA) 09 JUL 2016

2015 19.57 +0.4 Eugene, OR (USA) 28 JUN 2015

2014 19.68 -0.5 Monaco (MON) 18 JUL 2014

2013 20.21 0.0 Shanghai (CHN) 18 MAY 2013

2012 20.11 +1.0 Gainesville (USA) 21 APR 2012

2011 20.20 +1.9 Clermont (USA) 21 MAY 2011

2010 20.63 -0.1 Arzana (ITA) 07 SEP 2010

2005 20.00 +0.4 Monterrey (MEX) 11 JUN 2005

2004 20.01 -0.7 Sacramento (USA) 18 JUL 2004

2003 20.04 -0.1 Bruxelles (BEL) 05 SEP 2003

2001 20.29 +0.6 Columbia (USA) 11 MAY 2001

Why are these athletes taking these supplements? Because somebody told them they were really good.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Not being deeply knowledgeable about distance, I would like to ask what the point of this thread has become.

Is the contention that essentially all of the top Kenyans are using/have used?

Is it that essentially all of the top Kenyan times were/are boosted, and that rEPO is responsible for most of that boost?

It is difficult to decipher this discussion from outside, because there seems to be much water under the bridge between rekrunner and others. I think I know Canova's position, that EPO doesn't work on "highly-trained super-elites".

That's the most stupidest thing I've ever heard! See Kiprop (3rd fastest 1500 ever), Jebet (2nd fastest SC, former WR holder), Jepchumba (3rd fastest HM), Jeptoo (6th fastest marathon).

Jeptoo already lost her CAS hearing, so she's done and her prestigious Boston title was flushed (nobody with a straight face takes her seriously anymore as she's considered a colossal fraud). And if the others also lose their CAS hearings, it's a four (4) year ban, and essentially career ending in today's climate. They'll also face the wrath of the running community, the media, fans, etc.

For example, how could Kiprop ever show his face again in Nairobi after he has pissed off so many youngsters that idolize him. And Bahrain will wash their hands of Jebet and she'll probably have to leave the country (they may even want the scholarship money back they gave her as incentive to represent their country).

This isn't the old days with an EPO positive resulting in a 2 yr ban and basically a "slap on the wrist." It's 4 yrs, essentially career ending, plus potential lawsuits from sponsors and all that.

So, in today's anti-doping climate the benefits of using rEPO as a PED by "highly-trained super-elites" must far outweigh the risks, as you see that the consequences of getting busted are catastrophic! Why else would they still use it?

A "53 Hct" at sea-level? What's up with that?

Not Mr Obvious wrote:

So Anti Doping Kenya sends it's blood tests to Bloemfontein, which lacks WADA accreditation.

It looks like Moen is being target tested like Rupp, Ritz and Jager. I wonder why?

Yep...you're right - South Africa lost it's accreditation in 2016 and they're not even listed on WADA's general list of anti-doping labs: