Sunday Mail Has More Details on Paula's Blood Values and Off Scores + News She'll Put up £1m for an MRI lie detector

rjm33 wrote:

Dr. Fuentes said that given a list of athlete names he could match up their code names, and offered to reveal them. It shouldn't be hard to figure out. There may be a written list somewhere, as that is a lot of code names to remember. Jan Ullrich had 9 bags of blood at the clinic that were specifically matched to Ullrich by DNA matching, which could also be done with other athletes. Dr. Fuentes was very busy....besides the 200 blood bags, and EPO, there were over 1,000 doses of anabolic steroids found at his residence....

He argued he was bringing these elite athletes back to health.. Never testing positive.

He also did some major sabre rattling at the time of his trial threatening to reveal footballers and the "true extent" of doping..

It's a broken system.

rjm33 wrote:

This Operation Puerto decision should be a huge story...I haven't seen it reported anywhere else recently except by you....a great find...good job......

.

Thanks. I've been following the case for a long time. I have a Google Alert set up for Fuentes, which is what brought it to my attention.

Don't let this thread die!

The thread will be quiet for a while I think - I can't see any more real developments until the second half of the report from the IC is released (and this may well get delayed I would have thought). It's unclear to me exactly what the focus of this will be - obviously it is on the corrupt payments for covering up dodgy results, but I'm not clear whether it will be making a judgement in general on what constitutes a 'suspicious' blood value, and if they will analyse if what IAAF/WADA did in specific circumstances (i.e. whether their enquiries into Paula's results were sufficiently robust). Difficult to see that Ashenden and Parisotto will comment again before the IC is released either.

Still feel that Paula needs to release a whole lot more data in order to clear things up. Each interview that she does feels like an attempt to 'close' the issue and put it to bed, designed to generate newspaper articles declaring her 'clean' and 'finally cleared' when this is still very far from the truth. Three spot off-scores do not tell the whole picture - they need to be seen in the context of a release of blood values from all her tests. Not releasing the data but trying to close off the debate is guilty behaviour. If you have nothing to hide, release the data. It's pretty simple.

Have heard nothing more from the Daily Mail or anyone else about the supposed 'faulty equipment' in the hospital in Faro? Don't think this would be publicly released except to the IC, but it's the kind of thing that you can imagine being leaked.

DHT123 wrote:

Not releasing the data but trying to close off the debate is guilty behaviour. If you have nothing to hide, release the data. It's pretty simple.

looks unlikely to happen

the data is likely incriminating and can't be explained away

Dennis Meinema ( Dutch article )

"Adrienne Herzog was associated in 2010 by Spanish and Dutch media with doping practices surrounding its coach Manuel Pascua Piqueras then. Her name popped up in Operación Galgo (Operation Greyhound), a major doping investigation by Spanish justice. Herzog denied and put her career on. Pretty Netherlands now has hundreds of e-mails in which the athlete after 2010 asking where they can get drugs

Adrienne Stefanie Herzog was born on September 30, 1985 in Amersfoort.

Blood transfusions

With that career, everything seemed to go smoothly, until her name was mentioned in the Spanish doping investigation. Earlier, in 2006, it was mainly cyclists who walked during Operación Puerto doping case against the lamp by confessions of Dr. Eufemanio Fuentes, four years later, a network of doping athletes was discovered. Especially Spanish athletes were mentioned, but also Herzog, who was trained in Spain was on the black list. Coach Pascua was arrested on suspicion of involvement in a major doping network. Fuentes also was arrested again. The Guardia Civil found bags of blood and against Herzog was found incriminating evidence, including a tap of a phone call in which she Pascua would have asked for epo."

larkimm is a joke! wrote:

Don't let this thread die!

I like that idea ... don't let this thread die ... but first, Larkimm's not a joke; I feel sorry for him; he just doesn't want to let go of his emotional attachment to the fairy tale.

Michael Ashenden ? Lord Coe referred to him as a " so called expert " . My twin retracted his insult about Lord Coe being a scumbag but I can't see how the noble Lord's comment is anything other than ignorant.

Here is an eye opening educational interview from 2009 when not a lot of people wanted to hear the truth about another uber wealthy lying cheating arrogant bully athlete doper.

Of course, if there is a blood bag that can be identified with an individual athlete..that would really be getting caught red-handed....I mean red-bagged....You would really be in big trouble...

Here's some more..... Remember when Paula explained away in recent interviews her suspicious blood score post 10K race at the 2005 World Champs, where she placed 9th in 30:42. She described it as a "sh*t race", and not near any of her best performances. Well, I hope she isn't changing stories again because I just found an article from

www.spokesman.com

from Aug.6, 2005, the day of the race, which states about the upcoming race that "Paula Radcliffe has said she is using the 10,000 as a warmup for the marathon next Saturday." Huh, so which was it, a "sh*t race" or warmup? A 10K in 30:42, a season's best and 41 seconds off her all time best is pretty good for a warmup. Or maybe it was just all of the above...a "sh*t" race warmup....then just 8 days later Paula ran 2:20:57 to win her only World or Olympic marathon in her career (Rita Jeptoo was there also in 7th in a then PB 2:24:22!!). So when Paula says that suspicious blood test after the 10K wasn't near any of her best performances, that isn't really true, as it is only eight days away from the marathon. On Paula's side, after the marathon, her OFF score was 102(with no hemoglobin or reticulocyte score given with this score) which is (finally!) probably a normal, non-suspicious bloodtest result. So Paula probably ran and won that 2005 marathon with normal blood test results at the time of the marathon race. I also think (personal opinion) that Paula could probably run a 30:01 10K or 2:18 marathon clean. It isn't Paula's actual performances here (EXCEPT the 2:15, which is equivalent to about a 13:53 5K or 29:05 10K!!!) that are suspicious, it is her bloodtest results and her behavior that is suspicious.... and still no bloodtest results from around the 2:15 doesn't help her case......

Back to Kenya...Did you know that Priscah Jeptoo (not Rita Jeptoo- the EPO positive) was also coached by Claudio Berardelli and managed by Frederico Rosa? She was silver medalist at the 2012 London Oympics, won the 2013 London marathon in 2:20:15, won the 2013 NYC marathon and has a half marathon best of 1:05:45... She has some very good results as well...doesn't she?....

Another runner you may not remember..... who was also managed by Frederico Rosa,.... was 2007 Philadelphia half marathon winner in 1:08:45, and 2:25:36 marathon runner Pamela Chepchumba......Pamela tested positive for EPO at the 2003 World Cross Country Championships, and was banned for two years...another top level Kenyan managed by Frederico Rosa that tested positive for EPO....just a coincidental pattern developing....right???.........

There is always more stuff coming out......the more one looks....the more one finds.......

...so both Rita Jeptoo(EPO positive) and Priscah Jeptoo... and Stanley Biwott.. and Matthew Kisorio(anabolic steroid positive) and Agatha Jeruto(anabolic steroid positive) have been associated with manager Frederico Rosa and coach Claudio Berardelli.....I guess that Claudio Berardelli is a really great coac,huh?.....I wonder what his special secret training methods are ???....maybe some type of "special block" method....or "special sauce" method....Who else has been associated with Berardelli???

The Sunday Times/BBC analysis from the leaked database covering over 12,000 tests by over 5,000 athletes from the years 2001-2012 (all in the Lamine Diack era) was done by Michael Ashenden and Robin Parisotto. They determined that about 33% of all the medals, and about 40% of all the gold medals for all the endurance events at all of the World Championships and Olympics from 2001-2012 were won by athletes with suspicious blood test results, including 18 Kenyan medals..........

The situation is much worse than what most people can even imagine..............

rjm33 wrote:

Here's some more..... Remember when Paula explained away in recent interviews her suspicious blood score post 10K race at the 2005 World Champs, where she placed 9th in 30:42. She described it as a "sh*t race", and not near any of her best performances. Well, I hope she isn't changing stories again because I just found an article from

http://www.spokesman.com

from Aug.6, 2005, the day of the race, which states about the upcoming race that "Paula Radcliffe has said she is using the 10,000 as a warmup for the marathon next Saturday." Huh, so which was it, a "sh*t race" or warmup? A 10K in 30:42, a season's best and ..

Full marks for digging that one out.

The power of the truth is simple, stupid stuff like this doesn't follow you around.

EPO cheats out Paula. Or, is it transfusion cheats out?

rjm33 still bossing this thread ...

One quote that was all too familiar from the Asenden interview was this one:

"MA: One of the things, I guess there’s been misinformation in this particular area – is that the samples weren’t analyzed properly, that they were analyzed using a different protocol than what was used in proper dope controls – and that’s just not correct."

http://nyvelocity.com/articles/interviews/michael-ashenden/

Falsetto ( Rigoletto's twin ) wrote:

larkimm is a joke! wrote:

Don't let this thread die!

I like that idea ... don't let this thread die ... but first, Larkimm's not a joke; I feel sorry for him; he just doesn't want to let go of his emotional attachment to the fairy tale.

LOL, your sympathy for me is gratefully received...

When someone credible comes forward with specific allegations against Paula backed up with real evidence I'll be quite content to hear it and debate it (if necessary - it could be an open and shut case).

But until then, just reflect on the fact that it seems that no-one apart from posters on this thread seem to be publicly making the case that Paula doped. No journalist, no credible blogger, no anti-doping agency. I'll just pop up as the voice of sanity every now and again just to keep our feet in the real world.

You obviously don't read the scienceofsport blog then.

You might assume that larkimm is a Paula/Coe/Nike/IAAF stooge - the scary thing about him is that he's actually a real person who posts fairly regularly on the virtually defunct Athletics Weekly message board. There, and on T&FN as well for example, other people very quickly dismiss LR as a haven of trolls, misfits, and freaks. Whilst it's true that there's a lot of rubbish to wade through, there is some great work done by posters. I used to be a huge Paula fan, and in many ways I still am. But some people here have done a lot of research into her statements, and it is very clear that, for someone who once staked her reputation on transparency, there is now an awful lot of obfuscation going on.

You spotted my cunning disguise...

Things are so much more civilised over on the AW board!

Well i am glad you have stepped out of the tumbleweed of AW and dipped into LR. Seriously though, a lot of the contributors to this thread are not tinfoil-hatted, foaming, conspiracy theorists. There is deep research that they have done into the words behind PR's statements, and the number of inconsistencies they have uncovered related to weather, altitude, timing of tests, etc is alarming. This is time consuming stuff, and not the work of rabid keyboard warriors. If Shobukova's stories had this amount of holes in them, she would be rightly crucified. Hold Paula to the same standard.

oh do give it a rest wrote:

You obviously don't read the scienceofsport blog then.

I've read reasonable chunks of it. I'd be the first to admit I don't understand all of the physiologicial stuff.

But I can understand this:-

"So, to wrap up – is Radcliffe lying? I don’t know. Her explanations are all plausible, but she hasn’t helped the situation or the credibility of her own explanations by playing this the way she has. "

I agree with his position that Paula could probably do a lot more to attempt to exonerate herself.

I don't agree with the principle adopted on this thread that you need to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you are innocent of any wrong doing, but rather I adopt the balance of probabilities test, which I accept is subjective and different people will have different views upon. I come down firmly on one side of the fence, others here don't. If she doped, it would be devastating for the reputation of athletics, but the sport should make every effort to catch every doper, whoever it is.

Personally, I think there are far more iconic figures in running who have a higher likelihood of doping than Paula - not to say that I think they doped, but that I'd be less surprised if they did without being caught. But as I've said before, the only real evidence that I think that any of us can use to conclusively determine if someone is a doper is for an anti-doping case to be proven against them through the usual routes. Until then, the only sane position to take is that they are clean, whilst remaining healthily sceptical.

Joke Larkim wrote:

Well i am glad you have stepped out of the tumbleweed of AW and dipped into LR. Seriously though, a lot of the contributors to this thread are not tinfoil-hatted, foaming, conspiracy theorists. There is deep research that they have done into the words behind PR's statements, and the number of inconsistencies they have uncovered related to weather, altitude, timing of tests, etc is alarming. This is time consuming stuff, and not the work of rabid keyboard warriors. If Shobukova's stories had this amount of holes in them, she would be rightly crucified. Hold Paula to the same standard.

So I challenge these deep researchers. Put the information they have gleaned into the hands of a credible investigative reporter on a major publication. Get them to follow it up in the public domain. Get them to put it to Paula directly. Move it out of the LR bubble and into the real world.

I maintain that some of this "deep research" is flawed (e.g. the Vilamoura temperature debate) and the researchers are often seeing what they want to see. Equally I could be guilty of that too, I'm sufficiently self aware.

I don't disagree that there aren't parts of Paula's (and the IAAF's) justification of her innocence that I'd like to see clarified as someone interested in the debate, but equally I do support the stance that athletes shouldn't have to leap over ever-higher hurdles to find some retrospective proof that they were clean so I recognise that there's only so far I expect any athlete to go in their own defence.

Proof of being clean of drugs is almost impossible to determine. Proof of being dirty is easier.

Theraceradio, a twitter source and a source who leaked a lot of the info on Lance before the main stream media has put questions to Paula directly via twitter and the posts have been deleted or ignored... here are a few...

'Some folks need to be careful. When your dealer has other customers, and those customers like to talk, you can end up looking like a massive hypocrite.'

'When he drank Leonid would get chatty about his client list. Some big names'

Question for @paulajradcliffe. Is your name on the IAAF's ‘Suspicion Red’ list? If yes why?

No answer yet from @paulajradcliffe. How about another question....Did you ever do business with Leonid Shvetsov?

Paula Radcliffe talking about credibility... Maybe if you realised your numbers I'd find you more credible..

The vast majority of people on my TL get really angry when Paula Radcliffe talks about credibility! This pleases me!