Loss of coordination in leg - Official runner's dystonia / focal dystonia discussion thread

will releasing the left psoas muscle and stretching my left quad with some glute med exersices on left help balance this out and take the pressure off of the tfl?also how do you no if you are working the tfl or the glute med?i do these exersices and it feels like it is the tfl being worked

Is anyone running double days while trying to run through this? Or have you tried? I'm curious to see how you guys feel, and in particular, on your second run of the day. My last season of eligibility is just around the corner, and we begin mandatory double day practices this coming monday. I'm a bit concerned because my legs are toast on the second run of the day, even if I keep the first run to 30 minutes.

bump

andy b, I'm no expert and still learning abt all this, but if u can find a way to release the psoas, I think the glute med will be the area that's more affected, in that it will be able to function better.

From what research I've gathered, I think when u have an overloaded TFL, its possible that yr rectus femoris, vastus lateralis are all overloaded and tight also. Mainly from what cases I've come across, including my own, this is due to the gluteus complex not 'firing'. The glute max, for eg, is used as a hip extensor when we run. But when this area is weak due to neglect or past injury, we unconsciously rely on the hamstring and/or the hip flexor group (psoas, TFL, rectos femoris, illiacus) to take over some or all of the glute max's job, on top of what they are already supposed to do. Over time, this leads to overload, fatigue, strain, shortening, etc. in those areas.

So, if u release the psoas and stretch out yr quads, and strengthen the glute med, I believe that's the direction to go but u also need to work on the glute max also for more thorough results. However, I'm curious as to how best to really lengthen the hip flexors and quads, as I've very little success with all the recommended stretching techniques. How best to release the psoas? Anyone got better and effective ideas?

TFL or GM? I think when u feel it more on the outside of yr hips, laterally, and not nearer the front, then u r working the GM. The TFL is nearer the rectus femoris wh is at mid-quads. My experience is that u need some practic to 'squeeze' the right area, and the initial difficulty usually stems from how we've not been actively engaging the GM for far too long. I think its cos the nervous system becomes gradually cut off from that area and that's why we started losing control in the first place.

Maybe u can try physically locating the GM w yr hand and maintain contact throughout each rep of yr exercises. I think that'll help somewhat in regaining a feel of where you'r supposed to activate. For some pple I think it takes a while to get it so persevere.

hskid,

I'm curious; does yr therapist mean that when u get yr glute med to fire successfully, the hip flexors will AUTOMATICALLY loosen up? Without stretching them?

Also, why did yr therapist give u a ful length lift for yr good leg? What's the effect on yr entire pelvic region and on yr running mechanics?

OH KNOW

I ran doubles last summer and I think the only reason why I was able to get through it is because I did a significant portion of my weekly mileage on trails and grass. If I had to run it all on pavement, I don't think I would have made it. I don't remember the 2nd run being any worse than the first.

My advice is to skip the extra mileage and spend that time and energy on rehab until you feel 100% better.

I've been doing the glute firing exercises before my runs but haven't noticed anything major yet. The first day was pretty hard running because my glutes felt really fatigued from the exercises, but each day after that seemed to be progressively easier.

I wish I could, but I'm in a bit of a bind as running is paying for my last class in college. At this point I'm just hoping to get through November then take a very long break from running.

foomiler-

is the glute max supposed to active during or after the pushoff phase in running. I definitely cannot active it while standing in place and pushing off, but after the initial pushoff while my leg is behind me, I can contract it, but it's very difficult for me to do without tensing up my entire leg.

The Gluteus Medius is the principle abductor of the hip and runs from the ilium to the greater trochanter. Although it can abduct the leg by contracting concentrically, its primary function during gait is to stabilize the hip and pelvis during stance by contracting isometrically. It prevents sagging of the pelvis on the unsupported side by contracting on the supported side. In terms of EMG activity it is a stance phase muscle and fires during the first 2/3's of stance and is electrically silent during swing phase.

Gluteus Maximus runs from the posterior pelvis to the posterior aspect of the femoral shaft and fascia lata. It also is a stabilizer of the pelvis during stance. EMG's demonstrate that it fires in the first quarter of stance.

Interesting. When I try to consciously use my glute max while walking, my legs feel like jello and begin to lose coordination.

Many ppl (including myself) train our legs and figure that we'll hit the glutes along the way. Most of the time when we walk/run, we use our leg muscles to initiate propulsion and displacement, rather than the glutes.

When we do squats, for eg, most of us would concentrate on just hitting the quads and the hams, and maybe pay some attention to the knee position. We assume the glutes are just this huge lump of flesh/muscle that will hold up the load as a kind of cushion. Therefore we fail to consciously activate them at the bottom and at the top of the movement. We rely mainly on our quads to push the weight upwards, and the hams to control deceleration of the load when we go down. But those jobs belong primarily to the glutes! Esp glute max! The quads and hams are 'assistants'.

So this mentality translates to how we use our body when we run and walk. We activate the leg muscles as propulsive tools. The stronger our calves/hams/quads the faster we can go. That's not necessarily wrong but as a result we leave out the glutes from our mental picture.

How many runners, esp recreational runners, still complain abt having big butts? Mostly their butts are smaller and more toned than sedentary ppl, but they FEEL different because unconsciously they know that they have not been actively engaging the glutes in their exercises. Most runners land way in front of their centre of gravity or general centre of mass (GCM) as they rely on their lower leg/heel to absorb most of their landing impact. Joggers rely even more on lower leg to run than more serious runners.

My view is not that we need to 'squeeze' the glutes with every move we take as we run/walk, but that we need to consciously train these muscles in other ways so that our central nervous system can stay 'wired' to these oft neglected areas. Then when we run, even tho our minds r off our body, these areas go into action in their respective and appropriate given roles, rather than be substituted by the synergistic muscles surrounding them.

Sprinters can be more mindful of their glutes than distance runners since they need to practice crouched starting positions and keep a low bodily angle for the initial acceleration phase off the blocks. This is heavily glute-reliant,and the failure to 'fire' the glutes properly usually leads to hamstring pulls of quadricep tears, bec we r then substituting the synergists for the prime movers.

Distance runners, however, can go on for miles and miles with a more erect torso and so we don't really get in postures that make 'glute-awareness' that probable in our activity. I'm curious as to whether most of us here are/were high mileage runners when/before we got this problem? A fairly high volume of LSD can be pretty mind-numbing and we tend to unknowingly get into muscular compensation when the prime movers and/or stabilisers become fatigued. Then, instead of using the glute max, we activate the hipflexors/hams to extend our hip, and over time they become overworked and tight.

I think that's why mibfan24's 4x200m sprints work well even when he's not totally ok yet. Because fast strides make glute activation more accessible, while for slower longer runs we tend to rely more on either hams and/or lower leg, due to the relatively lesser propulsive requirements. We also tend to land more forefoot than heel-strike when we sprint, and this usually takes the load off the ITB/TFL as the incidence of pronation is decreased due to shorter ground time. How many sprinters u know have come down w ITB syndrome? Practically none. For them its usually achy glutes/lower back and/or dodgy hams.

Does this mean we all need to become sprinters or that we shd be low mileage distance runners? Not necessarily, but we need to re-examine our present training methodologies and see where we can make up the inadequacies. Have we been runng way too much? Shd we include more x-trng/strength work? Is our running technique the culprit? What r the truly important muscles we need to work on as top priority?

I see this loss of coordination thing as some sort of journey to reclaim the proper understanding and usage of our bodies. Its been awfully painful but I think we'r all becoming wiser....

foomiler--the problem seems better when I run barefoot or in lower profile shoes, does this target the glute more than a normal training shoe or something?

"The Bushman's Buttocks: A Lesson to be Learned!"

http://www.easyvigour.net.nz/fitness/h_gluteus_maxintro.htm

I want to comment on something foomiler has brought up.

The faster you run, the more activated the glutes become.

That is true and because of that it is worthwhile to do some faster running with low shoes and or barefoot. The glutes are activated and one quits using that shuffle stride that long distance runners get into.

One thing that I see distance runners NOT maintaining is the lower back arch so necessary to activate the glutes. This is why I like egoscue exercises, because they activate the lower back arch. The flat back, so often seen with distance runners, relies on the leg muscles and hip flexors to do the job, and they get fatiqued.

Just this week, I was having calf and shin pain on my left leg, could not figure it out, and could not see what had changed in my stride. I spent an hour at the football field running barefoot, doing drills, etc this morning and the shin and calf pain was completely gone after 15 minutes, so I just carried on. What I noticed when I was done is that I had been overstriding on my left side for some unknown reason, and when I put my shoes on and ran home, I made sure I didn't try to throw that foot out there too far. No pain. So...sometimes what you "think" you are doing with your stride may be different that what it is really doing. If you get a chance, try some barefoot running to find out what your true natural form is.

This whole situation is so strange to me. Yesterday I ran 11.5 miles with most of it in very hilly trails. The first mile or so is flat so I felt a bit awkward as usual, but once I got into the hills, other than a little bit of quad fatigue, I felt invincible and hammered away for the entire run as if my legs were normal. Even more interesting is coming back the last mile on the flats I felt normal as well. I just don't get it.

the pt said if the glute med fires correctly, it will take significant pressure off of the psoas

I got the full length lift on my good side because my pelvis is higher on my bad side by 1/8th of an inch, and he wanted to balance it out

I still feel pretty crappy running. the first steps i take my quad is noticeably more fatigued and have seen no improvement since the lift

hillrunner8,

I have the same experience. I've been doing quite a huge amount of barefoot running, and somehow my coordination seems fairly ok. The way my feet land on the ground feels awfully different from when I have shoes on, even minimalist shoes.

I'm not entirely sure abt this, but it appears that when we run barefooted, we alter our entire gait to a more bent upper body and knee angle when we land on each foot. We also land more on the balls of our feet. Maybe in this position, the way our body is angled, we stick our butts bk out a bit more as part of our body's natural suspension/shock absorption system. In this way they are more active than when we run with shoes.

I've come across studies abt countries w ppl who r too poor to buy shoes and so they walk & run around barefooted. It appears that these ppl have none of the common running-related injuries that we shoe-shod ppl have.

I think God knew what He was doing when He made us. Our feet r naturally equipped to handle ground forces in such a way that does the rest of the body no harm. I think that natural unshod running helps our bodies to perform what it was meant to right from the start, and that ensures a healthy all-rounded activation of the various muscle grps that we have been discussing so far in this forum.

I mean, how many animals complain of a loss of coordination in any of their legs due to some muscular shut-down? They travel in their natural unshod state and do just fine. Consider also the aborigine tribes that still exist in more or less primal living habits in various countries. All barefooted, or shod in animal skin with no cushioning qualities. And how many of them run around in circles at top speed regularly in pursuit of faster running times whilst in their natural habitat?

I think if u check out all these other threads abt minimalism/barefoot running, u will get a better idea. Don't have to take my word for it, but when we run in more built-up shoes, we tend to rely more on push-off beginning from our lower leg muscles, then leading upwds in the chain to the upper leg muscles, before we hit the glutes. But when we run barefooted (or close to it, in very thin shoes) we tend to tread more gingerly over the ground, relying more on picking up or pulling up our lower leg using our glutes/hamstrings, rather than trying to generate forces with our feet.

The next time u run barefooted, try and get someone to video you, and also when u run in cushioned trainers. Maybe u can get a better idea and maybe share with us new understanding that we don't yet realise.

What mlbfan24 mentioned abt hills is again very familiar. I think some other guy also brght this up briefly earlier on. I'm guessing that we activate the glutes more when we run up hill. I know how many coaches r looking to train their athletes ankles, calves and quads as well as overall leg drive when they use hill running, particularly Arthur Lydiard's original intention for 'hillsprings' or hill bounding. The emphasis is usually on encouraging a more powerful push off from the lower leg, and to have higher knee lift. However as we have seen on this thread, our hip flexors r suffering badly from this teaching.

If u take the original idea behind hill training, u get a running cycle that starts from the ankle/calves/feet at push-off, then the quads/hip flexors come in to lift the knee up and forward, with the hamstrings and glutes just coming along for the ride until footstrike. How much glute activation is there in such a running style? How can we make the smaller hip flexor group do the work of the way larger and stronger gluteus complex? The result is they overwork and wear down.

But when consider Italian coach Renato Canova's take on hills (yes, the guy who coaches steeplechase king Shaheen), it is done more as 'half-squats', with the view of activating yr glutes and yr nervous system, we can see how hill running can make be helpful in our problem.

Then there r runners who have too much 'back kick'and little knee lift, in that they 'over-activate' their hamstrings in the attempt to maximally follow thru on the lower leg's push off, in view of creating a greater stride length and forward thrust. Again the glutes r only along for the ride, rather than play any initiating role in the stride cycle.

Some of my teenaged runners do not buy into what I say, and only believe in training/activating their leg muscles, so I did a test for them. After 5 400m repeats at abt 5k race pace w adequate recovery, I have them note how their various leg muscles feel. Some feel it in the quads, while some more in calves and ankles. Then I had them go an all-out final 400m, aiming as if to clock a PB, and they ALL experienced glute pain. This is bec they rarely activate those muscles, preferring the cosy feeling of heel-striking, knee-crunching long distance shuffle even when running 5k pace! However when they r forced to sprint, the glutes come into play automatically, but they tire out badly bec they r so weak from irregular recruitment!

Footwear, running style/technique, running speed/pace; I think all these come into play. Even if u do not do much sprinting, but u do run a lot slowly barefooted, u r probably still activating yr glutes more than when u run slowly in cushioned shoes. But of course not as distinctly as when u run faster. Just my theory, not well-researched.

Remember that the glute maximus is a stabilizer muscle, not actually as active as the leg muscles. It should stablizie the pelvis, and allow for the leg to swing using the adductors, quads, ilopsoas, TFL. If unable to stabilize sufficiently then the flexors have to work extra hard to bring the leg through swing phase. Or if the leg muscles are weak, you see those runners with the sit down style of running with no power.

Training the glutes is training for stabilization of the leg, not to use them to propel the leg - that is still the job of the leg hip flexors. I actually think the hip flexors are underused in long distance running.

16x,

I agree. But I guess I am mindful of the glute max's other role as well when I write, that of being hip extensors. I was thinking along the lines of when we have forward knee drive and the rear thigh is extended forward and the front is flexed upwds.If the glutes are dormant most of this work goes to the hamstrings below, and this upsets the loading on the hip flexors above.

But yes, the glutes r stabilisers and that role is crucial.