So every 3rd day that's 5 workouts in 2 weeks for me.
One more question in the original Norway method they replaced every 3rd workout with an X workout (200m hills) ? Did anyone try that ?
A handful of people have replaced the third sub-T day with hills. Typically, these people have done a block of this method (3 sub-T, 3 easy, one easy long) before swapping the third sub-T for the hills. Anecdotally, these people haven’t seen the benefit from swapping in the hills. They usually just go back to the 3 sub-T. I’m not sure why they aren’t seeing the benefit from the hills, even with shorter races. Usually people add the hills because they’re racing 800s or miles or 3ks. I’d be interested to hear more about people’s experience with the hills. Perhaps they aren’t getting the dosage correct. Maybe it’s something else entirely.
Interesting. I guess , or let's say I' m convinced , they had been more successful if they swap the 3rd subT for a maxVO2 e.g 12-20 x 400m @ 5 k race pace and 60-90 sec easy walk rest or easy walk rest back to 120 bpm pulse (or 60% of max heartrate) .I guess the 200s hill reps won't give the same perfect control of effort as the structured maxVO2 reps.
You are totally wrong of course. Sub threshold is defined as an individual PACE within the range of lactate level lower than the 'traditional' LT at around 4.0 mmol.You can not get away with saying " It's a state, not a pace" . Of course it's an individual pace even if that pace varies as long as it still is sub threshold.
Besides, it should be much more interesting and civiliced to discuss training with you and similar people here without those negative offending attributes as " clown" , "idiot" , " lier" etc.This site had gone back to a much more respected reputation if people could discuss and give their opinions without getting offended. That's my opinion.You should respect others opinions to contribute to a more friendly discussion climate here. And I friendly finish this comment by saying I don't agree with you this would be the best 'size fits all' approach for hobby joggers.
Have a nice day bro. 👋🧙🏼♂️
Threshold "pace" is totally arbitrary. What is it. 10 mile pace, hour pace? It's much like FTP. Even Coggan has flipped over time. Is it 40km TT is it an hour? None of this is exact. The state of threshold is much easier to pin down. Why this system is so clever, is it allows you to experience running at different paces, for different durations yet attempt to roughly reproduce 3 lots of threshold a week. We aren't talking Daniels and 20 min straight threshold runs here.
Jan, this is why you are such a terrible coach. You would have your athletes if you chose to coach them like this, running at 90s or 10 mins at this "mythical" threshold pace you claim. A lot of what you say, is purely arbitrary. You've changed now, but at least you say or 60% of HR max. For many, many years you just pulled numbers from anywhere "rest down to 120bpm", totally overlooking this is again, some random arbitratory number, when you fail to understand someone's max HR might be 155.
You really are an awful, awful coach. Probably one of the worst. It's not just your sub elite runners have virtually all got worse, or how you have flat out made up athletes like Emma, or how you reply to yourself and forget you have logged in still. No, it's more your failure to learn. To develop, as a human and a coach. That, ultimately is why you are a terrible coach and someone I wouldn't even let me worst enemy be coached by.
Last year I was running 45-50 mpw with around 6-8 miles of "hard" intervals and I kept running around 18:05-18:15 (did also run a 36 10k 3 times though). I eventually strained my groin and stopped running.
This year I have dropped way back to 30-35 mpw, spread over 4 runs. I try to do 20/80, so this week I did 8x4 minutes around 6:10 pace (vdot threshold pace) and I did parkrun this morning in 17:44. My past 4 parkruns have all been 17:40s so I've improved about 30 seconds.
Now... can I adopt any of the training in this thread to improve further? I'm 36 and get tired fairly easily, which is partly why I dropped the mileage and I no longer do a long run. I've done parkrun 3 times in the past month, running 17:40s, and I don't really feel any fitness benefit from it. The improvement seems to have come from the threshold session coupled with more overall recovery.
You're able to run sub-18 on 30-35 mpw? That's impressive. I'm at 40-45 mpw and am trying to break 20:01 lol.
I will agree with you that switching from the workouts as specified in distance (10x1000m) to time (10x3 mins) is probably what most will have to do at least starting out.
You are totally wrong of course. Sub threshold is defined as an individual PACE within the range of lactate level lower than the 'traditional' LT at around 4.0 mmol.You can not get away with saying " It's a state, not a pace" . Of course it's an individual pace even if that pace varies as long as it still is sub threshold.
Besides, it should be much more interesting and civiliced to discuss training with you and similar people here without those negative offending attributes as " clown" , "idiot" , " lier" etc.This site had gone back to a much more respected reputation if people could discuss and give their opinions without getting offended. That's my opinion.You should respect others opinions to contribute to a more friendly discussion climate here. And I friendly finish this comment by saying I don't agree with you this would be the best 'size fits all' approach for hobby joggers.
Have a nice day bro. 👋🧙🏼♂️
Threshold "pace" is totally arbitrary. What is it. 10 mile pace, hour pace? It's much like FTP. Even Coggan has flipped over time. Is it 40km TT is it an hour? None of this is exact. The state of threshold is much easier to pin down. Why this system is so clever, is it allows you to experience running at different paces, for different durations yet attempt to roughly reproduce 3 lots of threshold a week. We aren't talking Daniels and 20 min straight threshold runs here.
Jan, this is why you are such a terrible coach. You would have your athletes if you chose to coach them like this, running at 90s or 10 mins at this "mythical" threshold pace you claim. A lot of what you say, is purely arbitrary. You've changed now, but at least you say or 60% of HR max. For many, many years you just pulled numbers from anywhere "rest down to 120bpm", totally overlooking this is again, some random arbitratory number, when you fail to understand someone's max HR might be 155.
You really are an awful, awful coach. Probably one of the worst. It's not just your sub elite runners have virtually all got worse, or how you have flat out made up athletes like Emma, or how you reply to yourself and forget you have logged in still. No, it's more your failure to learn. To develop, as a human and a coach. That, ultimately is why you are a terrible coach and someone I wouldn't even let me worst enemy be coached by.
No one of the many elite runners and runners at other levels I coach and have coached got worse. Most of them improved fast .Do you really believe a world top runner as Geoffrey Kamworor asked me back in 2016 to coach a 15 k world record attempt in secret if I was that awful coach you suggest??
You are totally wrong in your negative words about me as a coach and longlife experienced human being.You don't know me close .If you had I'm sure you had changed your mind.And you had been really surprised when I had shown you the proofs all successful coaching cases I have done all are 100% true.
I think the discussion climate here would have ɓeen much more civiliced and interesting if people like you stayed with comment the threads main subject and not attacking other contributors to the thread's subject with what you randomly think about them as a person and so on. 😉
Stay with the thread's subject here and discuss the training method and leave out your crap about what you think about the personality of other contributors to the thread. Have a nice day.
No one of the many elite runners and runners at other levels I coach and have coached got worse. Most of them improved fast .Do you really believe a world top runner as Geoffrey Kamworor asked me back in 2016 to coach a 15 k world record attempt in secret if I was that awful coach you suggest??
You are totally wrong in your negative words about me as a coach and longlife experienced human being.You don't know me close .If you had I'm sure you had changed your mind.And you had been really surprised when I had shown you the proofs all successful coaching cases I have done all are 100% true.
I think the discussion climate here would have ɓeen much more civiliced and interesting if people like you stayed with comment the threads main subject and not attacking other contributors to the thread's subject with what you randomly think about them as a person and so on. 😉
Stay with the thread's subject here and discuss the training method and leave out your crap about what you think about the personality of other contributors to the thread. Have a nice day.
Jan, you have tried to disrupt the thread on at least half a dozen occasions, to try and make it about you or sell your magic system. Please stop lying. It's truly terrifying to me how actually sociopathic you are yet apparently fit to work with children. Absolutely terrifying.
Without a spiroergometry, a lactate step test is not even half of the story. You do not know VO2max and CR (cost of running) and the changes of these parameters during a training intervention...
A spiroergometry remains the gold standard. Lactate step testing can be done additional to that.
Assuming someone already has a good idea of what paces/efforts they should be training at from lactate, VDOT, breathing, etc, what specific improvements to training can be informed by knowing VO2max and CR? I'm not asking about the things we do with these aspects of physiology in mind, rather specific interventions that are made significantly more effective thanks to measuring VO2max/CR.
My current assessment is that the training needs of any of us non-elite athlete are obvious enough without VO2max/CR information that testing for these is a waste of time, energy, and money. A key theme of this tread is minimizing the waste of our limited resources on less helpful aspects of training so that we can make the most of what we can give to training.
If there's something I'm missing here I'd be keen to learn about it.
Let's assume you have a training intervention for 12 weeks and you do only a lactate step test at the beginning of this period. After 12 weeks you do again a lactate step test and you realize a right shift of the lactate curve (example). You know you got better for long distances, but you do not know exactly what parameter got better (LT%, VO2max or CR?). For a park runner that migth be enough, but for an athlete operating on a national or world class level this is for sure not enough.
If you race time got better, or if you can do your 3min reps at a higher pace (exmple), you also know you got better, why do you need an additional lactate step test showing that?
So basically someone could argument, safe your money and resources and do no lactate step test, because you can indicate your performance improvement on another way.
No one of the many elite runners and runners at other levels I coach and have coached got worse. Most of them improved fast .Do you really believe a world top runner as Geoffrey Kamworor asked me back in 2016 to coach a 15 k world record attempt in secret if I was that awful coach you suggest??
You are totally wrong in your negative words about me as a coach and longlife experienced human being.You don't know me close .If you had I'm sure you had changed your mind.And you had been really surprised when I had shown you the proofs all successful coaching cases I have done all are 100% true.
I think the discussion climate here would have ɓeen much more civiliced and interesting if people like you stayed with comment the threads main subject and not attacking other contributors to the thread's subject with what you randomly think about them as a person and so on. 😉
Stay with the thread's subject here and discuss the training method and leave out your crap about what you think about the personality of other contributors to the thread. Have a nice day.
Sammy Nyokaye: Went from 2:14/1:02 to never running a PB again. Letlhogonolo: Ran slower at 800m/1500m in the months you trained him. Slava: got injured while being coached by you. Phil: You didn't listen to people telling you to prepare him for the hills at CIM and he blew up, running some 15 minutes slower than you predicted.
So your first two sentences are lies.
Kamworor asking you to coach him is the biggest joke ever. I suggest you take your meds.
You talk about showing "the proofs all successful coaching cases" but you never do. You have had years to show them but never do. In the meantime, your lies are all exposed.
The "discussion climate" here would be improved if one of two things happened: 1. if you stopped posting. 2. If you decide to post, that you stay on topic and don't make this thread about you. This thread is about a certain approach to training. You don't like it? Stay away.
So "stay with the thread's subject here and discuss the training method and leave out your crap about" your lies and promotion of your bad coaching. Have a nice day. Hopefully with some explosive diarrhea.
How does one incorporate racing into this shedule ?
Ps: this question is for everyone except coach wizard
Just replace the last sub threshold session with the race. Everything else I keep as similar as possible. Probably shortening the slow run the day before to 30-45 min instead of 60. And the previous sub threshold session maybe cut back slightly as well, but keep the same intensity. I have also raced without any tapering at all which also works fine especially for 5/10k.
Threshold "pace" is totally arbitrary. What is it. 10 mile pace, hour pace? It's much like FTP. Even Coggan has flipped over time. Is it 40km TT is it an hour?
This is false.
Specifically, I have never, ever defined FTP as 1(.000...) hour power.
Either you need to educate yourself better, or you're just trolling (ala Trevor).
”The Ingebrigtsens use hill training for the “single” day in the base period on the day where double threshold is not used and have done so from early training days. From my own experience, this works well, but it is also possible to use shorter/semi-short intervals from 200 meters to 1000 meters at 5-8 mmol/l lactate levels. Which type of session works the best likely differs from runner to runner and from distance to distance, but I do encourage finding a model that involves some work above the AT – or at least a specific different stimuli about once weekly.”
Are people doing this intense work or no? Is that because most people here are doing longer races?
You're able to run sub-18 on 30-35 mpw? That's impressive. I'm at 40-45 mpw and am trying to break 20:01 lol.
I will agree with you that switching from the workouts as specified in distance (10x1000m) to time (10x3 mins) is probably what most will have to do at least starting out.
Jecht, an honest question: Why are you doing just one subthreshold workout per week? Since we're talking about starting out, it seems to me that it would make more sense to start out with whatever you can do three times a week and build from there. Using time rather than distance to guide you is fine, but it seems like you could get in more subthreshold volume in a week even by starting out with something like 4 x 3 minutes 3 times a week and then building from there.
You're able to run sub-18 on 30-35 mpw? That's impressive. I'm at 40-45 mpw and am trying to break 20:01 lol.
I will agree with you that switching from the workouts as specified in distance (10x1000m) to time (10x3 mins) is probably what most will have to do at least starting out.
Jecht, an honest question: Why are you doing just one subthreshold workout per week? Since we're talking about starting out, it seems to me that it would make more sense to start out with whatever you can do three times a week and build from there. Using time rather than distance to guide you is fine, but it seems like you could get in more subthreshold volume in a week even by starting out with something like 4 x 3 minutes 3 times a week and then building from there.
I am starting off with 1 to make sure I can avoid injury. As I get older I am more injury-prone. It could be my shoes--a bit of soreness behind the bunion (occasionally) after faster sessions. I will get up to 3 as recommended (and use time, of course, not distance).