Look up lactate step test and you'll find a variety of protocols. There is no standard protocol because the protocol is dependent on the athlete's ability. You definitely need to cross LT2 though -the way LT2 is estimated on a lactate curve is by the change in slope that occurs at LT2 so a couple steps above LT2 are absolutely required to make this curve and have accurate paces.
Some general guidelines for crafting your own protocol:
Without a spiroergometry, a lactate step test is not even half of the story. You do not know VO2max and CR (cost of running) and the changes of these parameters during a training intervention...
A spiroergometry remains the gold standard. Lactate step testing can be done additional to that.
Assuming someone already has a good idea of what paces/efforts they should be training at from lactate, VDOT, breathing, etc, what specific improvements to training can be informed by knowing VO2max and CR? I'm not asking about the things we do with these aspects of physiology in mind, rather specific interventions that are made significantly more effective thanks to measuring VO2max/CR.
My current assessment is that the training needs of any of us non-elite athlete are obvious enough without VO2max/CR information that testing for these is a waste of time, energy, and money. A key theme of this tread is minimizing the waste of our limited resources on less helpful aspects of training so that we can make the most of what we can give to training.
If there's something I'm missing here I'd be keen to learn about it.
Put in a 5 week block since my last post and retested my 5km (was 18:22). Ran this in a park run race, minimal wind, on concrete on a quick course with heaps of people around.
Been again hitting 4 sessions with 2 sub-Ts (mainly 8x1, 5x1.6, 4x2). Upped my paces as someone suggested on this thread and was hitting the 1kms in 4 flats now. Anything under just feels too hot.
This morning I ran 18:22 again (lol) but on an athletics track, no spikes just carbon plates, paced for the first 2km then solo, temperature was beautiful but wind was about 20km/h and a tad gusty.
Initially I was disappointed but i’ve gotten more positive. Thinking this may be worth an 18:10 in the same conditions as last time and I have gotten quicker. Still seems like a good response to 5 weeks of training but interested to hear other opinions?
I’m now going to step up to 5 days a week, then 6, and start building that 3rd SubT session very slowly and carefully. Very interested to see the response I get.
Assuming someone already has a good idea of what paces/efforts they should be training at from lactate, VDOT, breathing, etc, what specific improvements to training can be informed by knowing VO2max and CR? I'm not asking about the things we do with these aspects of physiology in mind, rather specific interventions that are made significantly more effective thanks to measuring VO2max/CR.
My current assessment is that the training needs of any of us non-elite athlete are obvious enough without VO2max/CR information that testing for these is a waste of time, energy, and money. A key theme of this tread is minimizing the waste of our limited resources on less helpful aspects of training so that we can make the most of what we can give to training.
If there's something I'm missing here I'd be keen to learn about it.
You haven't missed a thing dude. You have totally, 100% understood what the thread is about. I've enjoyed your contributions and put them up there with the top long term contributions. It's lexel , who has missed the point as ever. He wants you to try to understand things that he thinks are clever and will make you faster. Spoiler, 1. He is not clever in the slightest, in fact one of the last intelligent posters as he doesn't even understand the jargon he posts 2. He has no idea how to train. He has never broken 20 himself and as far as I know, hasn't run in a long time. The remarkable thing is we have complete tools like lexel, JS and Coggan post, yet still we have fantastic new contributions, the thread lives on and refuses to die.
Put in a 5 week block since my last post and retested my 5km (was 18:22). Ran this in a park run race, minimal wind, on concrete on a quick course with heaps of people around.
Been again hitting 4 sessions with 2 sub-Ts (mainly 8x1, 5x1.6, 4x2). Upped my paces as someone suggested on this thread and was hitting the 1kms in 4 flats now. Anything under just feels too hot.
This morning I ran 18:22 again (lol) but on an athletics track, no spikes just carbon plates, paced for the first 2km then solo, temperature was beautiful but wind was about 20km/h and a tad gusty.
Initially I was disappointed but i’ve gotten more positive. Thinking this may be worth an 18:10 in the same conditions as last time and I have gotten quicker. Still seems like a good response to 5 weeks of training but interested to hear other opinions?
I’m now going to step up to 5 days a week, then 6, and start building that 3rd SubT session very slowly and carefully. Very interested to see the response I get.
Two sessions is not really this method, in my opinion. I've learned that the hard way myself, take this from a point of trying to be helpful. The third session is absolutely key, I made this mistake myself. This is the x factor without it seemingly looking like the traditional x factor. We've seen many people try short cuts or very low mileage/ time per week. Ultimately, the best method is 4x easy and 3x sub threshold. The ones it's really, really and I mean really working for, are these people. I've seen guys in the Strava group make it work with 6. Or 5-6 days + 1-2 days cross training. Having said that, what you are doing is not likely bad, for really low mileage and that's a very impressive time on not a lot. Especially if you consider sirpoc , who is the absolute gold standard for this, even more than KI at this point, was running 6-7 days and 5-6 hours a week at one point and was pretty slow at around 19 flat. But this didn't happen overnight, he even said himself, it's a long slow road and not a lot happened to his own times for maybe the first 6-8 weeks. A grind almost. Look at his runs over the past 18months Hardly missed a single day. Does the same thing absolutely. I guarantee you today we see 10*1k on his feed. That's how predictable and repeatable his training is. But also how much consistency and dedication you need to put in if you want this. The times are impressive but in my opinion the level of dedication and training focus is absolutely remarkable and is often overlooked here.
Now he is probably in the top road runners in his country in the 40+ category. It's entirely possible he could become a national champion in 5k road this year if he enters, I hope he does. But it's not just sirpoc, you look at the Strava group, the ones who have made very impressive jumps at all levels are the ones who have really not tweaked much from the original post he made a year ago now.
To those who have followed Sirpoc's Strava. Do you guys think his cadence is a bit...hmm...ridiculous? I mean he's doing 7 mins pace at 195. That's like 1-1.1m stride length! And when running at his 10k pace, it would be a whooping 210+. Do you think he would improve further, if he brings it down to something more "reasonable" like 190? I don't know...it just goes against everything my coach told me in the past.
To those who have followed Sirpoc's Strava. Do you guys think his cadence is a bit...hmm...ridiculous? I mean he's doing 7 mins pace at 195. That's like 1-1.1m stride length! And when running at his 10k pace, it would be a whooping 210+. Do you think he would improve further, if he brings it down to something more "reasonable" like 190? I don't know...it just goes against everything my coach told me in the past.
Maybe this is a troll post above, but I can assure everyone I'm not here to troll. Follow sirpoc closely and guy is truly remarkable in terms of progress, consistency and where he's headed. He's already sub elite for his age at this point, as others have said he's potentially a national podium masters runner. So let me get this out of the way, this is not to knock the guy......but......
I totally agree with the above. The cadence is simply ridiculous. This cannot be a sensible and efficient way to run, right? I know this has been asked before, but it kind of got overlooked as it was probably troll guys. But I would honestly like an answer/discussion on this. Because I have never seen anything like it.
Last year I was running 45-50 mpw with around 6-8 miles of "hard" intervals and I kept running around 18:05-18:15 (did also run a 36 10k 3 times though). I eventually strained my groin and stopped running.
This year I have dropped way back to 30-35 mpw, spread over 4 runs. I try to do 20/80, so this week I did 8x4 minutes around 6:10 pace (vdot threshold pace) and I did parkrun this morning in 17:44. My past 4 parkruns have all been 17:40s so I've improved about 30 seconds.
Now... can I adopt any of the training in this thread to improve further? I'm 36 and get tired fairly easily, which is partly why I dropped the mileage and I no longer do a long run. I've done parkrun 3 times in the past month, running 17:40s, and I don't really feel any fitness benefit from it. The improvement seems to have come from the threshold session coupled with more overall recovery.
To those who have followed Sirpoc's Strava. Do you guys think his cadence is a bit...hmm...ridiculous? I mean he's doing 7 mins pace at 195. That's like 1-1.1m stride length! And when running at his 10k pace, it would be a whooping 210+. Do you think he would improve further, if he brings it down to something more "reasonable" like 190? I don't know...it just goes against everything my coach told me in the past.
I sort of get the point, the cadence is very fast. Huge turnover. But who cares? It works and the guy has been injury free for a long time now, bar what sounded like one non running accident.
Your coach might tell you one thing. But let me tell you this, 90% of coaches or coaching books are full of worse or more useless information than this thread. If someone offered me sirpoc as a coach or something old school qualified to the eyeballs coach, I'm taking sirpoc. He's thinking ahead of the curve. Whilst pros have trained like this to an extent, it's relatively alien to us hobby joggers. This thread will stand the text of time and those who got on board in these early years of reshaping how training will likely be in a decade, will have a headstart. Comments like your coach has drilled into you, are why the dinosaurs are still focusing on stuff that quite frankly, does not matter.
No, I ain't. I am just genuinely intrigued by his data.
his cadence is not unheard of. I know a lot of Japanese marathoners have a similar cadence, but they're really compact like 5*4 and less than 90lbs which doesn't seem to be the case for Sirpoc. And with Sirpoc's cycling credentials, his legs should also be fairly strong (dude blasted a 40+k in an hour for God's sake!), so strength shouldn't be the problem. I wonder how his cadence could possibly that high (or his stride length be that short). Did he run like that when young?
That said. I would rather be the one who has a ridiculous cadence with a 31 mins 10k PB at 40 than a young guy who runs like Bekele with a 5k PB of 18 mins.
it just goes against everything my coach told me in the past.
Your coach spouts useless cliches about cadence and you repeat them without consideration. And so the cycle goes. Your coach probably also thinks that he can tell how efficient someone is just by looking at their form.
Hard to not agree with this comment...specific is key and coach JS shown many over year and beyond that his long time coached athlete improve beyond recognition under his 40+ year experience tutoring. Many of his long time coach keynan runner use his simple but effective system. Sirpoc may take more. Maybe he will learn from the great swede. There are pro like coach JS, some say magic 🪄 but also poor amateur like sirpoc . Sad to see downvotes for great swede and upvotes for poor Brit amateur. Luckily These forum still free speech.....so the great ever youthful swedes fans can come to his defence 🇸🇪🧙♂️
Come on Jan, please stop. I know you need to self promote but start a thread and we can call you out on your Kenyan athletes, they went backwards after signing up with you in fitness and times, lied about their times, or trained with someone else off you plans, then went back to their previous coaches and instantly improved.
Well, I really must have the right to comment this false accusations from you without being deleted for 'spam' . It's true when I say no runners ever went backwards coached by me. They all improved fast being sprinters, middle distancers , long distancers or ultra runners. This is 100% true and confirmed by one my best friends here mr Ghost 1 who has seen the coaching threads I still have left as a proof of what I have told here is 100% the truth. A few runners among the several hundreds of runners all over the world I have coached during now 10 years successful coaching lied to me about their traning results and race results . I still today really don't know why they did because they never asked me for money etc.
Now to more spot on what this thread is about. There is absolutelly no need to buy equipment as lactate meters and so on to get the guaranteed improvement of individual running results . It's wasted money if you by experience know how to find out your most effective paces without measuring lactate. And what the thread's hero Sirpoc is doing in his lactate threshold training according to race results and training paces it's simply old fashioned Daniels VDOT paces at closer to LT2 than LT1 . Nothing new revolutionary to be seen here as the vast majority of people here seem to believe.
And now finally in this long comment; You proposed I should start a new thread about my effective the Dancan system and my succesful coaching cases overvthe years. Well, it won't happen There is absolutely no idea for me to try start a thread about my successful online coaching and my own invented The Dancan system here at LRC. It will be shut down fast by the mods and cause for shut down ' promotion')) . So,so silly and waste of my time so I will not start again such thread.Wish you all best of luck with your running . 🙏👋