Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

I've read the whole thread. Fortunately the physiologists mostly use registered accounts so I can skip over their debates.

I'm not here to report results (yet), just to register the experiment (n=1). I'm M53 with about 10 years of serious hobby jogging behind me, so not a beginner. I've already hit a steep post-50 decline and adjusted my training to get back to a shallower rate of decline. I'm also coming off a 2:57 marathon. Last year I ran a 1:22 HM, 1:04 for 10 miles, and 18:30 for 5K, to give a ballpark range of fitness. I've got a 5K coming up in 2 days.

I'm going to give this method a serious try for a lot of reasons. It's a good fit for my best distances (10K-HM); I'm not much of a miler or marathoner. It's a good fit for who I am (a slow twitch, time constrained hobby jogger). I like the idea of trying to adapt elite training - I once tried to adapt Canova for hobby joggers, with pretty good results (I have a post about it somewhere). I have no marathon plans in the near future. The weather here ranges from awful to life-threatening for 3-5 months of the year, so a lot of my winter running is on an indoor track where intervals can help keep things interesting.

And after 2 weeks, I'm loving it. After the marathon I took a week completely off, did light jogging for a week, and then tried to do 3 sub-threshold workouts. I started off with 6x400, then added a bit of volume each time. After 2 weeks I'm up to 3 miles of volume, 3 times per week, plus easy mileage for a total of 40-45 miles per week so far.

This is the first time I've been able to hit 3 workouts a week - I tried it once with Daniels but had to back off. I'm finishing the workouts feeling refreshed and looking forward to the next one, not dreading the pain to come or worried about blowing up. Sirpoc's descriptions back in the first few pages and then more recently - he'll finish a session feeling like he's done a workout, but ready to go again - have been really useful for me.

My workout paces are probably all on the slow side, from maybe 5 seconds faster than marathon pace to 1 hour/15K pace at the fastest (so 6:25-6:40/mile, approximately). I take it by feel and try to keep everything in control. I'm keeping easy days easy and lot letting them turn into uptempo steady pace runs.

If 3 x 3 miles total at HMP as cruise intervals per week doesn't sound like much, keep in mind that it's (so far) 100% sustainable. My recent marathon buildup was a mess due to weather and minor injury/illness and family emergencies, so I would do a big workout, then have to recover with a long stretch of easy running. Lots of modulation between major efforts and recovery days. The reality is that in my buildup since January, I only averaged 6 miles of workout volume per week, mostly at MP. So a couple weeks in, just doing basic workouts, I'm already 50% above that in terms of workout volume, and at a faster pace.

I'm planning to hold here for a while, then build to 4 miles of workout volume in August/September. We'll see how it goes, but it seems very doable right now. At 4 miles of volume, 3 workouts a week would give me as much consistent training load as 2 workouts a week with 6 miles, which seems a lot harder. I feel like I detrain quickly - I definitely notice it if I take 2 days off in a row - and the schedule that gives me a stimulus of faster running basically every other day seems to have some benefits over one big workout every week or two. And at 3 x 4 miles per week, I'll still have lots of room to progress over the winter.

I have to adapt the program slightly. I'm using a subjective mix of pace, HR and RPE to guide me. I have to add 5-6 surges/strides to my warm-up, progressing up to MP, just so I can get on pace for the first rep; I'm old, and trying to roll straight into MP doesn't go well. And I only run 6 days per week. I've tried E-St-E-St-E-St and mixing the St repeats into the longer E run. Eventually I'll see if I can do St-E-St-E-St-Long.

I'll be back with results eventually, and random contributions before then.

You are the only people who writes "as you think", Jan.
You are an idiot.

2 days before is kinda late, you know it? but good luck anyway

If I'm just doing 30mpw(unfit, still have 30-35 lbs to lose), what workouts should I be doing?

The 5K is just for establishing current fitness, not to decide how effective Norwegian training for hobby joggers is. I've barely been at it for 2.5 weeks. I've got some more races coming up this fall, but it will be more like a year before I've had enough time for training and have a chance to run some serious races. (There's not a lot of races around here when it's -10 F and icy.)

Depends how much time it takes you to run the 30mpw. Let's say it's 6 hrs, then 3 sessions of ≈ 25 minutes each at ST would be a reasonable amount. So you could do 3x8, 5x5, and 8x3 min or something similar. The important part is to run these by time rather than milage so you can control the weekly % or time spent at ST.

Thanks for posting this!

I guess I was wrong...I am sorry if I offended anyone here.

Thanks for your post. Interesting.

I am in the same age bracket M53. Now running for 40 years. 800 m runner in my youth. Talentwise rather low level. Stopped competing mid thirties. Since then running just for fun. However, I like to train. Like to try new workouts, new approaches, etc. I am the hobbyjogger who can run a fast 1000m :)

Now, I do for a while and very much like:
Mo 7 miles very easy including 5x100m with jog back
Tu 7,5 miles including 6*700m ST with 100m jog (45s)
We 7 miles very easy including 5x100m with jog back
TH 7 miles including 3*1500m ST with 100m jog (45s)
Fr 7 miles very easy including 5x100m with jog back
Sa 7,5 miles with 10x300m uphill with jog down
Su long easy run 90 min or shorter whatever I feel for

Will soon switch Saturday to 10x400m with 400m jog on track or other track workouts. Saturday is fun day.

As a more "FT distance runner" I have experimented with more sub threshold or tempo volume per workout. It came out that I can sustain well about 3 miles sub threshold per workout and 3 workouts per week. I do know longer tempo stuff very well. All the other classic training methods as well. More frequently higher intensity or longer tempos are too tyring for me. I want to have quick feets nearly every day. Fast running is my main fun.

However, due to frequent worldwide business travels I have some breaks which makes it difficult to string together many weeks of uninterrupted training. Trying to stay under 5 off-days per month. I never race or seriously time-trial. I want to conserve my nervous energy for other life and work stuff. I assume me at 19:30 min fitness for 5k without any taper.

Have fun

Weird post.

Pores this in the Strava group as well:

Progress update: Ran at the same parkrun 6 weeks apart but no improvement so far. Ran the exact same time 6 weeks ago when I wasn’t doing this method. However, 6 weeks is not enough time as I’ve heard others report in the thread.

I can also confirm that sirpoc’s paces (at least for me) are bang on. Current 15K, HM, and 30K paces correspond to LTHR by the last rep for the 3 min, 6 min, and 10 min reps respectively.

39 yo

Max HR 187 (tested today at 3K race w/kick)

LTHR 162-166 (87-89% of MHR)

Good to see others do well.

Did a 5k in 20:01, best I've done since 2008, 75'F heat, some humidity but not too bad, 8:30 am this morning. Felt strong and controlled throughout, probably could have pushed a little harder at the end. 6:36, 6:20, 6:25, 0:41. Started to slip to 7:12 pace in the last tenth of a mile before kicking. Closed the last 200m in 0:41. 10th of 323.

I've only been doing 1 workout at sub-threshold or threshold, 1 long run, and the rest very EZ. And it's something like 2x2 at 7:20-7:40 pace once a week, EZ runs between 9:10 and 10:00 every day.

Average HR (151), did this all by feel. First mile I just wanted to feel steady. Never got to the point where my legs were burning, but my lungs were close. I didn't get a side stitch though; that is sometimes a sign of dehydration.

HR never went over 162.

@ jecht

Good to hear that you're happy with the performance.

Your HR info seems a bit strange, though. Your previous marathon HRavg is 156 but your 5k average is 151? Shouldn't your 5k HR be higher than marathon HR? Higher than LTHR? It just seems like something is off somewhere. According to this data, your MP workout from earlier this week (30 mins at HRavg 152!) was harder than your 20 min 5k race? No criticism intended; I just wanted to point out that the numbers seem incongruous.

I looked at the data after and didn't get that either. I ran it hard too. I didn't look at the watch when I ran though during the race, it was all by effort. (I know you didn't mean it wrong. I was confused too).

I know I am not the most well-liked member here on LRC but I appreciate everyone's feedback.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that this run was done at 8:30 am and the marathon pace work (30 mins. at 152) was done in the afternoon).

Here is my Strava:

strava.com

Best 5k since 10/11/08. Using 5k to get feis-ready! - Joshua A's 3.1 mi run

LOL, I do *not* like 5ks. This was done more out of curiosity. A little more effort and I could have broken 20. Next time! Enjoying the journey of racing and getting better.

Link:www.strava.com/activities/11821590594

did you use a wrist HRM? If so, that's not accurate for hard effort at all. (still okayish for easy runs)

Are you me?
Living in a cold place with bad weather: check.
Masters runner: check.
Hobby jogging for a while: check.
Race results: Very similar.
Less than a month into Norwegian approach: check.
Doing workouts at MP: check.
Using a mix of RPE, HR and pace: check
Running six days/week: check.

My goal is however 3000/5000 track. Hopefully breaking 10/17 this year.

Sincerely trying to be helpful.

You're looking for "the answer," the absolute recipe that is "right." Most guys here understand that it doesn't exist... Nevertheless, I respect your quest for it. Because that's how we figured out that it doesn't exist.

But either your tech is janky, or your perceptions are. If your tech is unreliable, don't rely on it. I'm a tech guy, but I pay attention to my own numbers and correlate them to my experience (perceptions and results). (Now) I can tell immediately when the tech is wrong. (In the past) I figured my perceptions were wrong.

It's OK to be pissed off that your tech isn't consistently delivering the goods as advertised. But if you figure that out, don't ignore it; it's better than training as if it were accurate. If it IS accurate, your perception of effort is waaayyyyy off. In a 5k race, shouldn't you be over 180bpm at the finish line? I have no idea which one is true in your situation (though I have a guess), but something doesn't add up.

Don't let the haters change who you are. Might as well be hated for who you are than who you aren't.

Sirpoc broke 32 for 10k this morning. He won the race, too, so he likely has more in the tank. I would not be surprised to see a sub-31 in six months or so.