Sub 2h30 Spring Marathon - The Quest For Amateur Glory Rides Again!

Ganbatte is your goal 2:29? seems a little soft given those splits you hit last week while massively increasing mileage

reed wrote:

Ganbatte is your goal 2:29? seems a little soft given those splits you hit last week while massively increasing mileage

Yeah, that's my goal right now. I will probably reassess after the race tomorrow. It's my first marathon so I am being a little cautious.

It's time we older guys listen to the magic one.JS seem to be the way!

@Ganbatte great training far stronger then what I'm doing!

Wrexham Elite marathon got cancelled so I signed up to 10 lap marathon around an airstrip near York next Sunday. So inadvertently have gone from a half last weekend to a full 2 weeks later. Hope I'm fully recovered.

Dialled down my expectations and going to head out at exactly 2.34 pace. Based off a 71.28 marathon I think that's conservative I hope and means I can take the stepping stone to 2.30.

ultra bear - why not aim for 5:50 pace? that's 2:32high and should allow you to pivot to either 2:31 or 2:34 pace later in the race if you need to adjust. should be pretty comfortable to start with.

@reed I agree. Due to the fact a marathon is 26.4/26.5 miles by a running watch I've calculated that 5:50/mi as per my GPS (No mile markers as variety of distances being run) should put me bang in 2.33 target.

I'll be trying to ease into the race but making every effort to take first 10 miles slowly!

Monday

AM: 6 easy

PM: 8 easy

Tuesday

AM: 4 easy

PM: 11ish workout

Wednesday

AM: 4 easy

PM: 14 easy

Thursday

AM: 4 easy

PM: 10 easy

Friday

AM: 5 easy

PM: 10 easy

Saturday

5 mile race. 13 total

Sunday

Long Run 20 miles @ 6:34 per mile

109 miles total

This was my best week of training in a long time. I got in good mileage, a workout, and a race. The workout on Tuesday was 3xMile + 1x800. I did everything around 5:00 pace and I felt good but not great. Did a medium long run on Wednesday and that felt good but definitely drained afterward. Took two days easy and then raced on Saturday. The race went well for me. I ran the 5 miles in 25:27 which is a new road 5 mile PR I guess. There was a pretty steep hill during the second mile. It climbed about 100ft in a quarter mile so that was rough. They had us go on a rail trail for about a mile and I thought that was going to be the fastest mile of the race but it ended up being my slowest. I was having a difficult time getting good traction because of the gravel and there was also a 180 degree turn that messed up my rhythm. Very happy with the result though. The marathon is in 6 weeks and I feel like I am trending in the right direction.

25:27 with a mile on gravel and a 100ft hill should put you close to 25flat on a track I'm sure. Don't mess anything up and you'll be closer to 2:25 than 2:30

M 8 easy

T 14 with morning track intervals and 3mi double

W 11.5 easy

Th 10 easy with 5x 15sec hill sprints

F 11.5 hilly trail run

Sa 9 easy

Su 23 hard hilly trail run, hard effort for first 20mi

total 87 miles, 12.5hrs total running time and 8000ft climbing

Tuesday was 2 sets of (200/600/200/400/800) with equal distance recovery jogs at about 8min pace. Didn't have great legs but managed the right effort. ran about 3k pace for most of it, about 71s.

Sunday was going after a long 20mi Strava segment in the mountains. about 4900ft of climbing, and all between 6000 and 9000ft elevation. ran fairly well and felt strong the whole time, which is a good sign. Ate like 900 calories during the 3hrs which is quite a lot for me per hour.

Hoping to keep it around 90 miles per week but start getting in more marathon-focused workouts. Really need to get in more miles around 5:50-6:10 "moderate" to get comfortable going kinda fast for a long time.

I'm making plans for my next marathon (in spring). I feel like I need to be spending more time of my training at or just faster than MP. I felt like there was too little of that in this buildup (partly because I cut it short by 5 or 6 weeks in order to run a race that actually happened).

One idea is to do that during a harder Sunday long run every other week (and to compensate, run the other long run a little slower). Some ideas: long run w/ large section at MP, long run w/ 4x5k @ MP, or maybe even a long run with sections at HM pace.

@reed good to see your training back on track. Hope the air quality is a bit better now.

RunningInEurope wrote:

I'm making plans for my next marathon (in spring). I feel like I need to be spending more time of my training at or just faster than MP. I felt like there was too little of that in this buildup (partly because I cut it short by 5 or 6 weeks in order to run a race that actually happened).

One idea is to do that during a harder Sunday long run every other week (and to compensate, run the other long run a little slower). Some ideas: long run w/ large section at MP, long run w/ 4x5k @ MP, or maybe even a long run with sections at HM pace.

@reed good to see your training back on track. Hope the air quality is a bit better now.

One negative issue, when you train to specific pace:

1) You prepare your body for specific pace (good), and this pace is fixed... that is the problem!

One step down or up away from this pace during racing due to weather/temperature/course and you can be cooked, as your body is fixed to one pace....

So that's why Canova's training can be risky for not good developed runners...

Canefis wrote:

One negative issue, when you train to specific pace:

1) You prepare your body for specific pace (good), and this pace is fixed... that is the problem!

One step down or up away from this pace during racing due to weather/temperature/course and you can be cooked, as your body is fixed to one pace....

So that's why Canova's training can be risky for not good developed runners...

I disagree, unless you end up being off by more than 10 seconds per mile which is unlikely.

I don't think running at MP is necessary, as it's not an ideal training intensity, but I still incorporate it mostly into long runs and occasionally to add volume to another workout. This fall I plan to put more focus on what I call moderate intensity, which is a little slower than GMP. maybe ten seconds a mile slower. The focus will be to get feeling comfortable running "moderate" for up to 15 miles and also not get too down on myself if I can't hit 5:43s every time

Running less than MP by 15sec/30 sec all same dividend. Just run 75% HRmax it is enough stimulus. When I was cyclist, I never train in zone 3-3a, only zone 1,2 and 4,5.

Very interesting both, thanks for the insights. @Canefis by that logic, would you incorporate zone 4 efforts into your long run? Or are your long runs strictly zone 3 and lower?

@Canefis what kind of background in cycling do you have? How did your power curve looked like?

Just wanted to say that this and other sub 2:30 marathon training threads have been a great read for the past few years. I am not near in this kind of shape and always find you guys sharing your ups and downs very inspiring!

Yeah I think I could have been close to 25:00 on a track... I've done decent at shorter distances but I am worried that I'm not prepared for the marathon. I've done a few longer workouts but not as many as I would like. 5:40 pace still seems crazy. I'm doing a hard long run this weekend so hopefully that will help.

RunningInEurope wrote:

Very interesting both, thanks for the insights. @Canefis by that logic, would you incorporate zone 4 efforts into your long run? Or are your long runs strictly zone 3 and lower?

So sure, we incorporate this workout on the late stages of our training during specific marathon workout: long run+MP pace.

In cycling: similar: 2X20min FTP + recovery(zone 2). Okay, sometimes we have steady state exercises: (zone4+ drop zone 3a) like hill repeats during sharpening period- but quantity of such exercises is limited in your training plan.

For both cycling & running, same principle: train below race pace and above race pace, but race at race pace :)) sorry for my english...

If you want to "build a funnel" [aka Canova]:

Train above MP: (60-80min)

1) LT intervals (1 hour total duration, maybe more)

2) Running economy intervals (20-40 min)

Etc...

HM pace - you train 60-80 min

M pace - you race, at 02:00-02:40 hours

Train below MP: (all your weekly volume by duration)

1) Easy runs

2) Long runs

3) Long runs + MP

As we all know 6% speed drop increases distance double:

So if your marathon target is 02:20 (03:19min/km pace)

Above MP:60-80minutes duration: (03:27min/km pace - 40-60minutes duration by repeats, tempo direct, etc + 03:00 5K running economy-20-40 min duration, no need to run faster than 5K pace)

Below MP: ease pace+long run (60sec-40sec slower than MP=04:19-04:00min/km - duration=every 6% slower than MP double distance, so duration=6.5 hours

long run=2.3 hours, but no more than 25%-30% of weekly volume

second serve wrote:

@Canefis what kind of background in cycling do you have? How did your power curve looked like?

Just wanted to say that this and other sub 2:30 marathon training threads have been a great read for the past few years. I am not near in this kind of shape and always find you guys sharing your ups and downs very inspiring!

Many on this forum are trying to find a magic combination of exercises that will work. This is a mistake.

The following example explains why: there are two types of mechanics, and a good mechanic is one who uses logical exceptions to quickly find the cause of a failure and repair it in the shortest possible time. A bad mechanic is one who does not understand cause-and-effect relationships well and finds a breakdown by brute force and also repairs it, but spends a huge amount of time and effort.

You don't need to look for a magic combination of exercises to succeed, you need to understand the principles of training and that's it.

I've already given advice on why it can't run 5K in a while. Do you know what he said? Who are You, you don't have a 5K personal account that's faster than mine, and Your advice is sh@t. That is, according to his logic, if you are not an authority, then Your principles and conclusions are nothing, but "who is still there". Well, man, it's obvious that if you can't run at the heart limit, it's useless to look for a combination of leg strength exercises, right? The opposite is also obvious.