Asbel Kiprop speaks to BBC: "The truth will come out and it will clear my name." Calls for dopers to be jailed.

What I find interesting is that no one mentions the fact that PEDs are actually more easy to obtain in third world countries than in Europe, Japan, the US, etc. There are no controls. And the cowards who defend the E. Africans are aware of how easy it is to buy drugs in Kenya, Ethiopia, etc. Hell, you can go online and watch videos showing how easy it is in Kenya. Here in CA for a couple of decades bodybuilders would just walk across the border into Mexico (Tijuana) to buy steroids. Easy access to PED's in the third world has been the way since the 70's. Runners like Coe are accused simply to obfuscate, misdirect, or as a way to attack whites, as the people making those attacks know and feel it's PC to do so. They've been trained to do so by the media and academia, such is the state of the West today.

The drugs are easy to get and much cheaper as well in third world nations. This includes "new" drugs. Americans, Europeans, Japanese, etc. actually subsidize the drugs for third worlders by paying higher prices - astronomical in the US - while obtaining them for legit use. The third worlders pay a pittance or their handlers pay a pittance. Add to this that some companies manufacture their drugs in these third world nations.

I side with the guy who thinks it's going to get worse. The people at the top who are behind this farce will go all out and you are going to see the E. Africans and probably a lot of other people get away with murder on the track for the next few years as the enforcement bodies will be paid off. I hope I am wrong but I doubt it.

The E. African era of total dominance started with Dr. Rosa doping Kenyans in 1987. It's that simple. Then all the rest followed. It was easier to get EPO in E. Africa, N. Africa, etc. back in the day. Just as it is now. It helps when political forces that have their own agendas decide to step in and render aid in order to further certain social "training" in order to eventually direct peoples' thinking and beliefs in many areas, sport just being a tool to aid that goal. Some people are aware of what's really going on.

Drugs may have done irreparable harm to the sport. Even if the sport is cleaned up Europeans may not have renewed interest in it, never mind anyone else.

I don't know what "downplay success" is supposed to mean. I don't ever argue against a successful performance -- measuring performance with time and place, is objective. I think my important contributions to any Jeptoo Boston 2014 discussion was to point out 1) that Chicago was 6 minutes slower, a race where we know she took EPO a few weeks before, and 2) Boston was fast because Shalane started with an aggressive pace. When you compile a list of factors explaining the 6 minute difference, especially since EPO was a constant factor, then you can begin to understand that EPO is not the only cause of fast performance. This is why "proofs by example", even successful examples like Jeptoo and other high profile cases, fail to show the cause of her success was EPO. Your suggestions for cracking down on anti-doping will convict innocent athletes. I think this is what "Deanouk" means by "WANTS to see all athletes failing tests."

casual obsever wrote:

Especially Rekrunner and Canova continue to downplay the success of all of those cheats, but at least Rekrunner finally admitted that Jeptoo was also doped when running the course record in Boston - after we showed him the evidence for two years.

I don't agree much of what you've have just written, but I don't have the time right now to specifically address some of your points. However, I want to get down to brass tacks, so to speak, about the doping climate of the 70s & 80s.

A lot of people here posting have been comparing the PED-fueled (mainly EPO) era of the 90s & beyond with what appears to a non-PED, i.e. clean-era of the 70s & 80s. Forgot about EPO for a minute back then - what about blood transfusions, steroids/T, cortisone & amphetamines use during that period? Were those methods & substances being used by some or even by many runners of that time?

Blood transfusions for aerobic capacity improvement, roids & T for strength & recovery, cortisone for recovery & amphetamines for endurance improvement (perceived time to exhaustion). It seems like this is quite a smorgasbord of PEDs for the athletes to choose from back then. It is all possible that the Brits would have used any of substances at all? Pre-competion? Off-season base training? Injury rehab? Or not the Brits, but more likely other nations?

When I started the "closer look at performances" thread, I was quickly lectured about my sample size not being "statistical significance". How many cases do we need to become "statistically significant"? Is "several" enough? There is some irony claiming after "several cases" we can no longer ignore EPO, in an analysis that ignores all other factors. If I'm not mistaken, you are talking about blood values in cycling. I don't think I ever argued against the effect of EPO on blood values.

casual obsever wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Ha Rekrunner, all Tucker's charts show is that if the record in a particular event has stood for a while, it means there was some serious doping back in the day.

Good example. Of course one case could be coincidental, but if several cases coincide with the various changes in testing (e.g. EPO tests with 1500 - 10000 m world records, or steroid tests with 800 m records), then blaming coincidence is ignorant.

Tucker has also shown how the athletes changed their blood chemistry along with the changes in EPO testing/off score measurements. Hard to argue against such strong trends.

I showed you the CAS document I knew about the verdict, which did not provide any details about Boston. Let's be clear about my idea of burden -- if someone else claims that the IAAF accused her of doping in Boston 2014, it is not up to me to do even 10 minutes of research. My sole burden is to ask for a link. This is consistent with "casual obsever's" cautioning advice "be careful with accepting word of mouth". I admit "this is just your word of mouth", is not the best way to ask for a supporting link, but in response, he quoted some other rule 8. (a), which talks athletes with a second ADRV -- which looks like a wild goose chase: it is not in the IAAF rules applicable in 2014, and doesn't seem applicable to Jeptoo anyway, as it would have led to a different table of sanctions becoming applicable, and a very different explanation of her sanction. Had he provided the link you did, it would have ended the story there, as it did.

Doped to the Max wrote:

And for Rekrunner it took me 10 mins to find the details & summary of the CAS hearing on the Jeptoo case that concluded she used EPO in preparation for Boston based on her ABP data and other incriminating evidence presented during the hearing. Either Rekrunner couldn't find this information and isn't as well researched as he thinks he is...or he knew about the details of the CAS hearing all along and was simply playing games with us.

Recently E. Manangoi issued a statement stating that he was in shock re Kiprop's recent EPO trial, believing that he believes the elegant and humble Asbel should be cleared of wrong doing as soon as possible.

Not saying all these super stars supporting Asbel prove that the latter is innocent of wrong doing, but it surely does mean something, as all those guys have spent lengthy periods with the pencil thin superstar, know him and know his habits. It is unlikely they would say those positive things about someone they suspected was cheating.

Or perhaps he knows things about them?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Or perhaps he knows things about them?

That kind of statement is unfortunate because it tends to put all quality Kenyans under suspicion, which is far from likely to be the case.

Look at all those 15-17 year old Kenyans and Ethiopians, already running 3.35, 7.30, 13.00 and 27.00. It would be nigh impossible for those guys to dope, so the progression which follows is logical.

I admire your loyalty and optimism, but after an A sample positive and a B sample confirmation, and the AIU rejecting claims of tampering, I'm struggling to see what possible truth can come out now that will clear his name. The only scenarios I can imagine is evidence, or a confession, of the testers sabotaging the sample before sealing it, while Kiprop left to get the phone, or a DNA test that the sample wasn't his, or other evidence of some conspiracy against him, or something along that line. Once anti-doping has met their high burden of sample collection, transport, storage, and testing, the procedure is stacked against the athlete. The sentiment and support of other stars may mean something personally, but won't count for much in front of CAS, and will count less for the sceptical fans here. Nevertheless, there are a couple of bizarre elements to the story. Whatever it is, I hope the whole truth comes out and justice is served.

Ghost1 wrote:

Recently E. Manangoi issued a statement stating that he was in shock re Kiprop's recent EPO trial, believing that he believes the elegant and humble Asbel should be cleared of wrong doing as soon as possible.

Not saying all these super stars supporting Asbel prove that the latter is innocent of wrong doing, but it surely does mean something, as all those guys have spent lengthy periods with the pencil thin superstar, know him and know his habits. It is unlikely they would say those positive things about someone they suspected was cheating.

Sounds like you're struggling with the idea that such a superstar, icon, legend, etc., would be doping. Don't be too alarmed - a superstar in the NFL (Edelman) was just caught using PEDs the other day. It sometimes happens to the best of them. ?

Ghost1 wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Or perhaps he knows things about them?

That kind of statement is unfortunate because it tends to put all quality Kenyans under suspicion, which is far from likely to be the case.

Blame Kiprop for that! When the best of the best, a legend, a superstar, an icon, a celebrity athlete and leader of the pack tests positive for dope, it tends to create suspicion for many others in Kenya. Unless you believe in a 100% detection rate, how do you know many others aren't following in Kiprop's lead. ☝️ So, don't criticize us for being suspicious - blame Kiprop...he's caused the suspicion!

Does it really sound like that? Because I'm not struggling with that idea. I'm well aware the faith in doping goes all the way to the top.

Real World Reality wrote:

Sounds like you're struggling with the idea that such a superstar, icon, legend, etc., would be doping. Don't be too alarmed - a superstar in the NFL (Edelman) was just caught using PEDs the other day. It sometimes happens to the best of them. ?

rekrunner wrote:

Does it really sound like that? Because I'm not struggling with that idea. I'm well aware the faith in doping goes all the way to the top.

"Faith in doping?" Man...you're one weird dude. Lol.

Examples from you from various different threads:

Downplaying Olympic Gold of a male EPO (CERA) user:

Downplaying Olympic Gold of a female EPO user:

Downplaying clear wins of two consecutive Majors by an EPO user:

Classical downplaying of success. Instead, one should point out that she won a fast Majors by a clear margin, while doped, and that she won a tactical Majors by a clear margin (in the same year) - in each case simply running away from the field during the last couple of miles.

That kind of strength towards the end of a marathon is actually exactly that kind described by the experienced EPO user Eddy Hellebuyck.

And straight out lies, for that is plainly wrong, not "the observed reality":

Yes I know, Canova said it first, but you called in "the observed reality".

Another clear lie, though often repeated by you and corrected by many:

No, they won't.

marxists have to destroy all ,

so they can rebuild it as they want it to be .

a clean sport , not possible .

and so incredibly dirty and dishonest at very moment with THE SPEED PEPTIDE .

if cant even mention that then , clean sport not even close .

god dam it do you think the horse justify is clean , likely done exact same way

except to dope horse might cost you 300,000 dollars but worth the investment .

2 triple winners by same guy after 33 year wait , seems completely normal to me .

Ghost1 wrote:

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Or perhaps he knows things about them?

That kind of statement is unfortunate because it tends to put all quality Kenyans under suspicion, which is far from likely to be the case.

Look at all those 15-17 year old Kenyans and Ethiopians, already running 3.35, 7.30, 13.00 and 27.00. It would be nigh impossible for those guys to dope, so the progression which follows is logical.

Do explain how many of these 'teenagers' running these times are actually 'teenagers?' It is interesting that from nowhere each year we see East Africans running 1:43, 12:53, 58, 2:05. Then they get added to the various testing pools and amazingly their talent, that could earn them a life of utter luxury, seems to desert them. I call this the "Ye Shiwen syndrome," Gebremeskel, Kejelcha and Gebrhiwet are all good examples of this.

I was almost going to give good old Rekrunner a +1?.......then I read further.

It's even more dramatic when accompanied by Beethoven's 9th Symphony ?

What do you find wrong with this? -- I thought I was being rather neutral. Kiprop's chances at this point seem very slim to me, for reasons we seem to be in complete agreement with, but this doesn't stop me from speculating what "The truth will come out and it will clear my name" (see the subject of this thread) could possibly mean. I don't know what justice is for Kiprop yet, or if he has any new facts, so I left that rather vague, but either way, doesn't everyone want the whole truth to come out, and justice served? Do you hope that some of the truth stays buried, and that injustice is served? Regarding bizarre elements, I've said it a few times, I find it odd that given 1 days notice (or by text screenshots, up to 6 days notice), that as an allegedly experienced doping veteran, Kiprop still had detectable EPO in his urine, even with new and improved tests. One predictable speculative response was that testers were being paid to covered it up, so Kiprop had no reason to change or fear. If that is really the truth, don't we all hope that comes out, regardless of the Kiprop verdict?

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Real World Reality wrote:

Sounds like you're struggling with the idea that such a superstar, icon, legend, etc., would be doping. Don't be too alarmed - a superstar in the NFL (Edelman) was just caught using PEDs the other day. It sometimes happens to the best of them. ?

I was almost going to give good old Rekrunner a +1?.......then I read further.