Sage should be beating Walmsley at 50 milers and/or 100-it doesn't make any sense. He probably has weak hip flexors and/or plantar flexors.
Stra wrote:
sageisararename wrote:I suspect that UTMB should be, potentially, one of Sage's best events.
Epic fail.
He should focus on shorter races, where he shines (like JW).
He devoted all his season to the UTMB obsession and now the results speak for themselves... I appreciate his honesty at least (a 10 minutes video was more than enough though).
There are too many factors at play to say that Sage's struggles are a single weakness or issue. He simply needs a coach, and it can't be his wife.
Yes, you are right. **********************Based on my limited knowledge and new insight from this video I would like to see Sage run a road 100km if he hasn't.****************https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g1tj9Knz4k
YMMV wrote:
There are too many factors at play to say that Sage's struggles are a single weakness or issue. He simply needs a coach, and it can't be his wife.
What is WRONG is that Sage's legs are too brittle to take the downhill beatings from large descents and YET he can't run a 4 minute mile. Sage should experiment with runs of 4+ hours on more level terrain.Plz respond Sage.
sageisararename wrote:
*****************SOMETHING IS VERY VERY WRONG.*****************
I literally know nothing about running but I suspect that UTMB should be, potentially, one of Sage's best events. He probably doesn't know how to train.
chancey wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASK4UUTaln4
Okay I'll bite (since my name is being brought up in this thread for some reason now).I'll admit I don't have all the answers and I don't know what I'm doing a lot of times (in terms of racing and training mountain 100-milers). Distance running is a fickle sport in general and I've had all sorts of horrible races (and good races) over the years over Any Surface and Any Distance. My performance at UTMB was a total disaster though....like way worse than my 13th at Comrades and 11th at Western States (and I walked a lot in those events!) which were probably my other worst ultras to date. Guys like Tim Tollefson give me hope though. He is about the same age as me and has a very similar background (i.e. 14:30ish 5km runner in college, 2:18 or so marathoner, 2-time US Olympic Trials Qualifier etc). He is a better downhill runner than me though for sure. I'd argue i'm a better flat out climber than he is but at UTMB it doesn't really matter as much as you are powerhiking with poles uphill a lot so the gains on the uphills are more marginal. Plus you need to be a "long range climber." It's not like Mt. WA or Pikes Peak. UTMB was the first ultra podium that i've missed all year. (3rd at Hong Kong 100km, 3rd at Chuckanut, 1st at Lake Sonoma, 3rd at Speedgoat etc.). Granted that's a lot of 3rd places....and Speedgoat was definitely a pretty bad race this year for me being 20-min slower than my best time there in previous years...So the year hasn't been a total disaster...and it's not over yet!100-miles in the mountains is a long way though (despite what Karl says). Totally different from a road marathon (which I am much more confident at....training and racing). Sure there are correlations and high Vo2max/Lactate Threshold certainly helps in all ultras...but you still get guys like Zach Miller (31-min 10km runner in college) mixing it up even at 50-mile ultras with 13:50 5km guys like Hayden Hawks (he's very strong!). I've run like crap at 100-milers though and even at some 100km I've performed and faded pretty bad. Probably overraced a bit over the years and my personality lends itself to creating race seasons that have a lack of focus/specificity. I think doing MT. WA this summer took away some of my "long mountain focus". It was my 2nd fastest time there....60-min high which wasn't stellar but wasn't bad. Racing Mont Blanc Marathon a week later was also a bad idea though...Next time I'll try to follow more in Tim T's footsteps....do a low key 100km or something in April/May then just train consistently averaging about 110-115 miles per week and 20,000' of climbing per week all summer. More ski slope training and then even some high intensity hill workouts (uphill and downhill). Then Race Day nutrition/hydration will need to be dialed more as well. Can't really comment on the brittleness of my legs...hip flexors definitely have always been an issue for me though...I've been running for 20 years now and never had an overuse injury take me out. For sure no 4:00 mile either. I popped a 3:55 1500m in college once...so maybe that's worth like a 4:15? Regardless I plan to be in this sport for the long haul!Thinking about jumping into Cal International next and giving the USATF Marathon Champs another go to close out the year (as well as an OTQ hopefully). Any of you guys going to be there?Anyway hats off to all the guys that did well at UTMB and kicked my butt!
sageisararename wrote:
What is WRONG is that Sage's legs are too brittle to take the downhill beatings from large descents and YET he can't run a 4 minute mile.
Sage should experiment with runs of 4+ hours on more level terrain.
Plz respond Sage.
sageisararename wrote:*****************SOMETHING IS VERY VERY WRONG.*****************
I literally know nothing about running but I suspect that UTMB should be, potentially, one of Sage's best events. He probably doesn't know how to train.
Hey Sage --
First, mad props for coming on LRC and sharing your thoughts. I actually bumped into you in Chamonix earlier this summer. I was super jet-lagged and probably not speaking coherently, and you were fresh off a killer marathon in the mountains. And you still took the time to chat and ask me about my running. Anyway, you're a good dude, and I appreciate what you bring to the trail running community.
Second, some advice. Take this for what it is, as I'm just an internet schmuck and you're an experienced MUT runner with lots of success. But I think you're really underplaying the nutrition and fueling issue. You wrote paragraph upon paragraph about training and over/under-racing, and then you slipped in one line to say "Then Race Day nutrition/hydration will need to be dialed more as well." I've been following you for a long time, and I can't think of too many races (esp. 100 milers) where you've said, "I nailed my nutrition today." That almost always seems to be your undoing. I think you'd be well advised to spend some time experimenting with new strategies.
Third, I think it's cool that you're thinking about that OTQ. But I also think you need to pick a long-term focus and stick with it. Playing around with flat marathons and 7 mile uphill races is not truly moving you toward your goal of competing for the win at the world's most competitive ultras. Sure, you could make an argument that the focus on running economy will benefit you in longer distances, and that's true. But I think you can get that running economy benefit without devoting 2-3 months exclusively to marathon training. Of course, I believe you should do whatever makes you happy, and that might be mixing up the distance/surface and keeping things fresh. But ultimately, that might also be what keeps you from getting where you want to be in the MUT world.
Take care, and best of luck. Always rooting for you.
Deer Sage,I could be on to NOTHING but seeing as you run 100km races anyhow I think you should give a 4+ hour more flatland race a go.1. You may have the same legs as Don Ritchie, the famous ultra road runner, although I couldn't find a proper side view.2. You said you had trouble on the downhill portions of UTMB.Fifth from the right.http://www.scottishdistancerunninghistory.scot/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/6-Marstars.jpgAnyway, I sincerely wish you the best.
S. Canaday wrote:
Okay I'll bite (since my name is being brought up in this thread for some reason now).
I'll admit I don't have all the answers and I don't know what I'm doing a lot of times (in terms of racing and training mountain 100-milers). Distance running is a fickle sport in general and I've had all sorts of horrible races (and good races) over the years over Any Surface and Any Distance.
My performance at UTMB was a total disaster though....like way worse than my 13th at Comrades and 11th at Western States (and I walked a lot in those events!) which were probably my other worst ultras to date.
Guys like Tim Tollefson give me hope though. He is about the same age as me and has a very similar background (i.e. 14:30ish 5km runner in college, 2:18 or so marathoner, 2-time US Olympic Trials Qualifier etc). He is a better downhill runner than me though for sure. I'd argue i'm a better flat out climber than he is but at UTMB it doesn't really matter as much as you are powerhiking with poles uphill a lot so the gains on the uphills are more marginal. Plus you need to be a "long range climber." It's not like Mt. WA or Pikes Peak.
UTMB was the first ultra podium that i've missed all year. (3rd at Hong Kong 100km, 3rd at Chuckanut, 1st at Lake Sonoma, 3rd at Speedgoat etc.). Granted that's a lot of 3rd places....and Speedgoat was definitely a pretty bad race this year for me being 20-min slower than my best time there in previous years...So the year hasn't been a total disaster...and it's not over yet!
100-miles in the mountains is a long way though (despite what Karl says). Totally different from a road marathon (which I am much more confident at....training and racing). Sure there are correlations and high Vo2max/Lactate Threshold certainly helps in all ultras...but you still get guys like Zach Miller (31-min 10km runner in college) mixing it up even at 50-mile ultras with 13:50 5km guys like Hayden Hawks (he's very strong!).
I've run like crap at 100-milers though and even at some 100km I've performed and faded pretty bad. Probably overraced a bit over the years and my personality lends itself to creating race seasons that have a lack of focus/specificity.
I think doing MT. WA this summer took away some of my "long mountain focus". It was my 2nd fastest time there....60-min high which wasn't stellar but wasn't bad. Racing Mont Blanc Marathon a week later was also a bad idea though...
Next time I'll try to follow more in Tim T's footsteps....do a low key 100km or something in April/May then just train consistently averaging about 110-115 miles per week and 20,000' of climbing per week all summer. More ski slope training and then even some high intensity hill workouts (uphill and downhill). Then Race Day nutrition/hydration will need to be dialed more as well.
Can't really comment on the brittleness of my legs...hip flexors definitely have always been an issue for me though...I've been running for 20 years now and never had an overuse injury take me out. For sure no 4:00 mile either. I popped a 3:55 1500m in college once...so maybe that's worth like a 4:15? Regardless I plan to be in this sport for the long haul!
Thinking about jumping into Cal International next and giving the USATF Marathon Champs another go to close out the year (as well as an OTQ hopefully). Any of you guys going to be there?
Anyway hats off to all the guys that did well at UTMB and kicked my butt!
Walmsley and Canadays performance at 100mi alpine ultras and the lack of African talent at mountain ultras in general can be explained by the same thing, lack of ability to grow a beard. You cannot hope to be winning races like UTMB, Hardrock, Leadville, etc. without a beard. The mountain sees these runners that look like high school varsity rowing team members and strikes down as punishment for disrespecting the race.
No, fifth from the *************************************left I meant.
http://www.scottishdistancerunninghistory.scot/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/6-Marstars.jpg
26.3 wrote:
Walmsley and Canadays performance at 100mi alpine ultras and the lack of African talent at mountain ultras in general can be explained by the same thing, lack of ability to grow a beard. You cannot hope to be winning races like UTMB, Hardrock, Leadville, etc. without a beard. The mountain sees these runners that look like high school varsity rowing team members and strikes down as punishment for disrespecting the race.
How do you explain Ian Sharman? Clean shaven, won Leadville 4 times, including 3 in a row.
Question for Sage: what is the longest duration long run you have done with no caloric intake?
Hey guys,Thanks for your support on here!To answer this question: 30-miles. I bonked after about 25 miles (only taking in water and running around 7-min pace at altitude in Boulder). This was a few years ago. When I trained at Hansons I used to roll out of bed, have a few sips of black coffee and then do a 16-17 mile workout on no calories (or breakfast). I'd fill my fluid bottles with water to practice drinking for workouts like 3 x 3 miles and hard 20-mile long runs in the 1:55-1:52 range.This summer, while training for UTMB I had a few 30+ mile Long Runs where I was taking about 1 gel/hour. Probably shouldn't have been messing around filming and carrying a drone around on some of those though!As far as what bkrunner and others said: Yeah I totally agree. Road ultras and other, "shorter" stuff is very appealing (less variables that can go exponentially wrong!). I didn't mean to underplay Race Day nutrition either as it for sure was a big factor in my failures at 100km-100-mile ultras. However I think even if my stomach wasn't doing so poorly at UTMB I still would have struggled to be top 10 as I didn't train my legs correctly (and yes, jumping up from MT. WA is a totally different race!). So specific focus in training and less messing around. Why the road marathon? Because it's always been a goal of mine since high school to qualify for the US Olympic Trials. It's a great test and it's a super competitive race (same as Boston marathon and NYC and Chicago...which I all want to do again as well). So the challenge is there. I'd like to qualify for my 3rd Trials and missing by 12 seconds in 2016 makes it even more of a motivating goal. For sure road marathon fitness is not directly specific to UTMB. I just like it and it motivates me. I respect any surface and any distance and I like competitive events. Finally there is the appeal of doing Comrades again....the most competitive ultra in the world. It is quite an experience. I gotta wait for another "uphill year" though. For ultra-trail UTMB is the ultimate though. It makes careers. Its not so much that I care that it's 100 miles (I'd rather it be 83 miles or whatever distance....I'd rather it be net uphill...but I digress!). It's this beautiful route with lots of media attention and high relative competitive depth that gets the most fanfare. So it is worth doing well there if you want to make a good living in the sport.
YMMV wrote:
Question for Sage: what is the longest duration long run you have done with no caloric intake?
IMO this was one of Sage's best videos. Here are my observations based on my long ago competitions in marathons, 50k's and 50 milers.
Fat is harmful in races, doesn't combine well with sugar, and upsets the digestion.
Too much sugar, too fast, can be upsetting to the digestion, and cause depletion of energy. Drink concentrations should be 50/50 of water, or much higher then that. I could usually tell when the drink were too strong and would add more water to the, so try to be perceptive of that. Drinking one coke, plus two or three waters is much better than one coke.
Complex carbohydrates are good, especially healthy ones. A mix of different kinds of carbs is good.
You already have a coach. Your wife. The key is working as a team and taking her input more seriously.
Focus. If you're aiming for UTMB, then I think it's a mistake to train for the marathon trials, and the longer the races in between, the better. If aiming for UTMB, then shorter races should only be for training, not racing. It would be good to focus on longer races between now and next year.
If you're not good at downhills, which is surprising with your talent, then you need to practice them regularly! I always did this before marathon+ races, and they helped me a lot in many different ways, including my speed. I could fly down the downhills with very little effort (including a 2:06 measured half at the end of a long training session), and head right back up at the end of them. Dave Scott used to run downhill 10 milers in training. You can get much better at these very quickly with focused practice.
Thank you for giving back to all runners in the many ways that you do.
Post race interview in Spain with Jim Walmsey.
Deer Sage,You mentioned the tough downhill and I made the wrong association concerning your Don Ritchie-type legs-I actually think you should struggle more with the uphill portion if "your body is ready." So, unless you can generate a relatively EXCEPTIONAL amount of power from your hip on the uphill (or whatever other muscle(s) that are more worked on the ascent) the suggestion still stands for ROAD ULTRA. Also, IMHO I wouldn't rule out downhill Comrades 100% unless you know that you are TRULY fully conditioned to take downhill beatings and can't.
S. Canaday wrote:
Hey guys,
Thanks for your support on here!
To answer this question: 30-miles. I bonked after about 25 miles (only taking in water and running around 7-min pace at altitude in Boulder). This was a few years ago. When I trained at Hansons I used to roll out of bed, have a few sips of black coffee and then do a 16-17 mile workout on no calories (or breakfast). I'd fill my fluid bottles with water to practice drinking for workouts like 3 x 3 miles and hard 20-mile long runs in the 1:55-1:52 range.
This summer, while training for UTMB I had a few 30+ mile Long Runs where I was taking about 1 gel/hour. Probably shouldn't have been messing around filming and carrying a drone around on some of those though!
As far as what bkrunner and others said: Yeah I totally agree. Road ultras and other, "shorter" stuff is very appealing (less variables that can go exponentially wrong!). I didn't mean to underplay Race Day nutrition either as it for sure was a big factor in my failures at 100km-100-mile ultras. However I think even if my stomach wasn't doing so poorly at UTMB I still would have struggled to be top 10 as I didn't train my legs correctly (and yes, jumping up from MT. WA is a totally different race!). So specific focus in training and less messing around.
Why the road marathon? Because it's always been a goal of mine since high school to qualify for the US Olympic Trials. It's a great test and it's a super competitive race (same as Boston marathon and NYC and Chicago...which I all want to do again as well). So the challenge is there. I'd like to qualify for my 3rd Trials and missing by 12 seconds in 2016 makes it even more of a motivating goal. For sure road marathon fitness is not directly specific to UTMB. I just like it and it motivates me. I respect any surface and any distance and I like competitive events.
Finally there is the appeal of doing Comrades again....the most competitive ultra in the world. It is quite an experience. I gotta wait for another "uphill year" though.
For ultra-trail UTMB is the ultimate though. It makes careers. Its not so much that I care that it's 100 miles (I'd rather it be 83 miles or whatever distance....I'd rather it be net uphill...but I digress!). It's this beautiful route with lots of media attention and high relative competitive depth that gets the most fanfare. So it is worth doing well there if you want to make a good living in the sport.
Canady sure doesn't have the legs to be elite at anything! No wonder walmsley is considered a god in ultras- he's a 14 flat guy lol. I.e. A nobody on the track. Nobody on he roads.
Hdhdjdjd wrote:
Ultramarathoners are awesome.
Try a year of training and racing while eating meat. Look at what happened to Mark Allen when he switched from vegetarian to eating meat.
I'm actually a vegetarian and I have strong reasons for why I don't eat meat. But, my "successful" racing days are also over, and I was never a professional. For someone who wants to succeed and earn a living running, I would highly recommend that you at least try it. Maybe don't tell anyone if you don't want to promote meat eating, but, it really may make all the difference in the world. I don't suggest this lightly.
Sage thinks he can be Jurek 2.0, but he is no Jurek and it ain't 2003 anymore.
Your career is worth it wrote:
Try a year of training and racing while eating meat. Look at what happened to Mark Allen when he switched from vegetarian to eating meat.
I'm actually a vegetarian and I have strong reasons for why I don't eat meat. But, my "successful" racing days are also over, and I was never a professional. For someone who wants to succeed and earn a living running, I would highly recommend that you at least try it. Maybe don't tell anyone if you don't want to promote meat eating, but, it really may make all the difference in the world. I don't suggest this lightly.
S. Canaday wrote:
For ultra-trail UTMB is the ultimate though. It makes careers. Its not so much that I care that it's 100 miles (I'd rather it be 83 miles or whatever distance....I'd rather it be net uphill...but I digress!). It's this beautiful route with lots of media attention and high relative competitive depth that gets the most fanfare. So it is worth doing well there if you want to make a good living in the sport.
This makes a lot of sense but what's the effect of taking media attention, a low bib number on the start line and then crashing hard like happened to you?
To me, it makes more sense to crush shorter races if you can.
See Hayden Hawks and Clare Gallagher amazing races.
You try to relate to Tollefson but despite two great performances he will never have a chance to win UTMB (that's why he jumps for 3rd place like it was olimpic gold).
