Personally I think Matt had a lookalike jump out from the bushes a mile or two from the top and then they switched places again on the way back down after Matt had had a lovely rest.
Plot twist - it was a young Seth James DeMoor with his matching mullet who was Matt's body double from A-frame to the turnaround and back. Sage was spectating at the top and is sure he recognized SJD but didn't have proof and hasn't been able to get him to fess up. That was the beginning of the conflict...
Learned all I need to learn from Avocado... has only run one trail race in his life. I guarantee you he's the guy in the Remi FKT video that says no way does he break the record and then eats crow on camera.
^^^R. Ruiz is correct, the bike comment is so far beyond ridiculous it's clear either "outside" is a troll or has never been near the Barr trail.
To wit: I moved to CO after college and being a bit burnt on running took up mtn bike racing in the late 80's/early 90's. Although not pro-level, I trained seriously and did well in the amateur ranks. Sometime in the early 90's I decided to ride up the Barr trail, thinking at 13ish miles it'd take 2-3 hours. It took OVER 7, and I would have been SOL had I tried to ride down at that point (dusk). Fortunately some kind folks gave me a ride down (on the road, obviously) - lesson learned. What lesson? The lower half up to Barr camp is largely rideable, and I made predictably decent time. Above that everything went to hell - never-ending rocks, switchbacks, and piles of gritty gravel like sand that pile up on the trail at various points. Translation: it turned into a grewsome hike-a-bike in cycling shoes, pure misery. Next lesson: a couple years later I quit the MTB scene and started running again, except now mountain running. Result - when I ran the PPM I hit the summit in the low 2:50's - more than twice as fast as I had gone on the bike!
While most of the commenters on this thread appear to have at least some sense of what mountain running is, clearly a few do not. It's not the Berlin Marathon, that's for sure.
Hah, you got me! I've never been to Pikes, like ever and I in fact have never met nor personally know any of the people being discussed. Its almost as if I am as I initially described myself.
But I guess, you have to know Pikes like the back of your hand and have received custard from the custard guy to have an opinion on this topic.
You know what, this just proves it. Open and shut case. No possible way the time could either be a result of error or cheating. Nice job guys!
I never said it wasn’t a result of cheating, I just said it would be extremely difficult to cut the course without someone noticing. We all know what was going on around that time period. Begins with E and ends with O.
This thread is so dumb. Pikes Peak is basically point to point out and back. The fastest route is up the trail. You are not going to ride a bike up it faster, especially not in 1993. There is really no where to hide above tree line. The idea that Carpenter did anything but run the course in 93 is ridiculous.
It just comes across as Sage a retired 2:18 marathoner mad that someone was faster than him. The reality is that Sage was always a much better road runner than on the trails. He isn’t very self aware though and loves to throw out road times as if it matters that much. Yet someone like Jim Walmsley with a similar marathon PR has run over 3 hours faster than him at Western States.
For decades, I would have been the last person I'd have expected to be defending him. I thought he got way too much attention in various media and had a cult-like following that seemed silly. But on this message board, the opposite seems true. His accomplishments in the tiny world of mountain running and high-altitude racing, which to me seemed entirely reasonable for someone with his level of talent and focus, started getting challenged as illegitimate by people who apparently just aren't particularly talented or accomplished, even within that little world. That annoyed me, to the point of speaking out about it. But it's really not about defending the legitimacy of Matt's accomplishments, about which there is no serious doubt among knowledgeable observers. It's probably more about the toxic ways that some people deal with their own failures or limitations. I tend to see less of that toxicity among people who are more comfortable about what they've done in their own lives.
Okay (assuming you are not actually Matt!).
The way I see it is that Matt's biggest career accomplishment (by far and biggest outlier) is that 3:16 Pikes Peak Marathon Record.
Yes, he still has the Leadville 100 record (Rob Krar pretty much equaled that already though) and he also won Pikes (both the marathon and ascent) a ton.....much like a Scott Jurek streak at Western States.
...
Once again, Sage is incapable of simply stating someone else's accomplishments without some sort of stupid qualification (like the one I bolded) or reference to himself and his amazing pro running career. There's a reason he does it to guys like Carpenter, and previously Walmsley - it's because these guys are (or were) in the same tier of runners as himself, within Sage's reach, but ultimately outclassed him.
Carpenter's record has stood for almost 20 years. It will likely be broken at some point. Krar once, in his multiple attempts (don't recall how many), finished 9-10 minutes behind Carpenter's record. In what universe is that "pretty much equal"?
It doesn't work like that and you don't get to have it both ways. Whenever someone says that 2:16 and 2:18 are "pretty much equal" marathon times, you take offense and write pages defending yourself. Except that the 2:16 legitimately doesn't count in the pro running world. Saying you are a "2:16 pro runner" is to be blunt, delusive.
You have yet to provide anything but an oversimplified "analysis" of his times on a number line and the super astute observation that one is much lower than the others. Not everyone might be as brilliant of a mind as you, but I think we all got the picture years ago. Legit outliers happen, raw data doesn't always tell the whole story, and several different posters here have provided plausible explanations for the outlier, as well as the reasons for his performances in subsequent years. Theories like course cutting, courses changes, stashed bike, stunt doubles, have been largely debunked. You've ignored every single one of these points.
You're running on fumes man.
This post was edited 13 minutes after it was posted.
You got to be Matt. Creepy like him as well. You’ve been defending him for years and years. In fact, any time I see you post it’s about Matt (who you need to remind us you didn’t care for).
Just FYI the Leadville course has changed since the CR which made it longer. Its pretty well accepted that Krar's 2018 run was considered at least on par with the CR because of the changes to the course.
Sage, been following this thread, but first time commenting on. Looking at the archives, I'm just making some guesses at how the outlier could be explained away.
At one point I think you said 3:48 PPM average, but I don't think you can use averages for any comparison. Like he ran 3:48 in 2011 as a 47 year old. That probably doesn't have that much reference to what he ran in 1993 as a 29 year old. And then 2001 was a double, 2007 was a double too. That throws off an average PPM time.
In 1992, he summitted in 2:05 and came down in 1:38. That Ascent was over two minutes better than his previous best from 1990. And I assume he just blew up on the way down. Got close to nailing it, but didn't quite.
Came back in 1993 and ran up faster, and didn't blow up going down. The 1:15 down was 10 minutes better than what he ran four years earlier going down. That seems reasonable for improvement. And probably 1991 and maybe 1990 too were both descent blow ups. Something like Jim Walmsley's early misses at Western.
And then after 1993 he never ran hard down again. Just did the Ascent in 1994, nothing in 1995, nothing in 1996, just the Ascent in 1997. Marathon in 1998, five years after his record, but now into the Kilian mode, just doing enough to win.
Dakota Jones ran the descent in 2018 in 1:13 too. That's probably the only faster descent.
For decades, I would have been the last person I'd have expected to be defending him. I thought he got way too much attention in various media and had a cult-like following that seemed silly. But on this message board, the opposite seems true. His accomplishments in the tiny world of mountain running and high-altitude racing, which to me seemed entirely reasonable for someone with his level of talent and focus, started getting challenged as illegitimate by people who apparently just aren't particularly talented or accomplished, even within that little world. That annoyed me, to the point of speaking out about it. But it's really not about defending the legitimacy of Matt's accomplishments, about which there is no serious doubt among knowledgeable observers. It's probably more about the toxic ways that some people deal with their own failures or limitations. I tend to see less of that toxicity among people who are more comfortable about what they've done in their own lives.
Okay (assuming you are not actually Matt!).
The way I see it is that Matt's biggest career accomplishment (by far and biggest outlier) is that 3:16 Pikes Peak Marathon Record.
Yes, he still has the Leadville 100 record (Rob Krar pretty much equaled that already though) and he also won Pikes (both the marathon and ascent) a ton.....much like a Scott Jurek streak at Western States.
But other than that?
A 1:05 half marathon PR (pretty much inline with his marathon PR and similar to SJD!)
A 2:19:xx + marathon PR (still very good)
A 2:40 showing at Sierre-Zinal (not bad)
A 59:xx time at the iconic MT. WA hill climb.
A lot of wins at some fairly "small" and niche mountain races (especially back then) like the Vail Hill Climb, Imogene Pass, Barr Trail Race etc. Not to take anything away from those races and wins, but it's not like what it would be like to win UTMB or the World Mountain Running Champs, or Sierre-Zinal or Zegama nowadays or something.
I respect the history and the guys "before the Kilian Jornet" era. I respect mixing it up on Any Surface, Any Distance. I've also run a few road marathons and a few mountain races in my day too.
I'm just wondering what was so different (apparently for Matt only) in that 1993 Pikes Peak Marathon Race. It wasn't the weather. It wasn't a "different course."
Back to some objective analysis though:
Of Matt's 15 recorded finishes (not counting that record time of 3:16), his average Pikes Peak Marathon Finishing time is: 3:45:xx.
That's a great time at Pikes and usually a win. SJD almost ran that this year as part of his double (he is also a very good high altitude runner!).
Again, Matt never ran in the 3:20s himself. He went from a 3:38 PR down to a 3:16. After that he ran in the 3:30s several more times...but never within 17-minutes of that record ever again? 17-minutes is a lot at this level!!
Your point? Carpenter's record is not a secret and we have known for decades that 3:16 was an outlier for Matt (although maybe not as much for Mejia). None of this is new information so why keep bringing it up year after year without any additional insight or even speculation about why it occurred?
Sage, been following this thread, but first time commenting on. Looking at the archives, I'm just making some guesses at how the outlier could be explained away.
At one point I think you said 3:48 PPM average, but I don't think you can use averages for any comparison. Like he ran 3:48 in 2011 as a 47 year old. That probably doesn't have that much reference to what he ran in 1993 as a 29 year old. And then 2001 was a double, 2007 was a double too. That throws off an average PPM time.
In 1992, he summitted in 2:05 and came down in 1:38. That Ascent was over two minutes better than his previous best from 1990. And I assume he just blew up on the way down. Got close to nailing it, but didn't quite.
Came back in 1993 and ran up faster, and didn't blow up going down. The 1:15 down was 10 minutes better than what he ran four years earlier going down. That seems reasonable for improvement. And probably 1991 and maybe 1990 too were both descent blow ups. Something like Jim Walmsley's early misses at Western.
And then after 1993 he never ran hard down again. Just did the Ascent in 1994, nothing in 1995, nothing in 1996, just the Ascent in 1997. Marathon in 1998, five years after his record, but now into the Kilian mode, just doing enough to win.
Dakota Jones ran the descent in 2018 in 1:13 too. That's probably the only faster descent.
Sage is obviously implying some sort of PED use. He does that with every result he doesn't like.
Your explanation is totally reasonable and has already been mentioned in various iterations throughout this thread and gets completely ignored because #science and data.
For decades, I would have been the last person I'd have expected to be defending him. I thought he got way too much attention in various media and had a cult-like following that seemed silly. But on this message board, the opposite seems true. His accomplishments in the tiny world of mountain running and high-altitude racing, which to me seemed entirely reasonable for someone with his level of talent and focus, started getting challenged as illegitimate by people who apparently just aren't particularly talented or accomplished, even within that little world. That annoyed me, to the point of speaking out about it. But it's really not about defending the legitimacy of Matt's accomplishments, about which there is no serious doubt among knowledgeable observers. It's probably more about the toxic ways that some people deal with their own failures or limitations. I tend to see less of that toxicity among people who are more comfortable about what they've done in their own lives.
Okay (assuming you are not actually Matt!).
The way I see it is that Matt's biggest career accomplishment (by far and biggest outlier) is that 3:16 Pikes Peak Marathon Record.
Yes, he still has the Leadville 100 record (Rob Krar pretty much equaled that already though) and he also won Pikes (both the marathon and ascent) a ton.....much like a Scott Jurek streak at Western States.
But other than that?
A 1:05 half marathon PR (pretty much inline with his marathon PR and similar to SJD!)
A 2:19:xx + marathon PR (still very good)
A 2:40 showing at Sierre-Zinal (not bad)
A 59:xx time at the iconic MT. WA hill climb.
A lot of wins at some fairly "small" and niche mountain races (especially back then) like the Vail Hill Climb, Imogene Pass, Barr Trail Race etc. Not to take anything away from those races and wins, but it's not like what it would be like to win UTMB or the World Mountain Running Champs, or Sierre-Zinal or Zegama nowadays or something.
I respect the history and the guys "before the Kilian Jornet" era. I respect mixing it up on Any Surface, Any Distance. I've also run a few road marathons and a few mountain races in my day too.
I'm just wondering what was so different (apparently for Matt only) in that 1993 Pikes Peak Marathon Race. It wasn't the weather. It wasn't a "different course."
Back to some objective analysis though:
Of Matt's 15 recorded finishes (not counting that record time of 3:16), his average Pikes Peak Marathon Finishing time is: 3:45:xx.
That's a great time at Pikes and usually a win. SJD almost ran that this year as part of his double (he is also a very good high altitude runner!).
Again, Matt never ran in the 3:20s himself. He went from a 3:38 PR down to a 3:16. After that he ran in the 3:30s several more times...but never within 17-minutes of that record ever again? 17-minutes is a lot at this level!!
Hey, did anyone know cavemen got more fiber than we get?
Sage is obviously implying some sort of PED use. He does that with every result he doesn't like.
Your explanation is totally reasonable and has already been mentioned in various iterations throughout this thread and gets completely ignored because #science and data.
So Hoka sponsored athletes can question every other athlete and start some random accusations? Is that the way brand ambassadorship works?
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Promoting Excellence in Running, Integrity of Character, Clarity of Mind, Sublime Humor.
This thread is quite entertaining, yet I’m more interested in next year’s PP Ascent and ‘Thon. Hoping the fields are deep and there’s some money spent on providing some better online coverage of the live race results. Following this year’s race online was very frustrating. There were many freezes on the summit cam livestream and the live race results were of no help in trying determine who was leading the races.
One should not spend too much energy looking back when the mountain is in front of you.
Yes it was very entertaining. It looks like Seth Demoor was the big winner this weekend, with the double win here. Sage Canaday was the biggest loser and he was not even running there.
Yes it was very entertaining. It looks like Seth Demoor was the big winner this weekend, with the double win here. Sage Canaday was the biggest loser and he was not even running there.
And for the record Seth also has a long history of EPO usage:
Eggs
Plyometrics
Overtraining
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Promoting Excellence in Running, Integrity of Character, Clarity of Mind, Sublime Humor.
Not the best advertisement for LMNT and coach Ari. Biggest takeaway which she failed to mention is that you don’t sign up for PPA on one weeks notice and if you’ve never run over 10k feet you don’t know what your body will feel like.
Thanks to LMNT for sponsoring this video! Head to http://DrinkLMNT.com/ALLIE to get your free sample pack!In this video I compete in my first ever golden tra...
Allie on her disappointing performance. Hopefully she fixes some of the mistakes and makes a more serious attempt at this in the future. I had linked the video but someone beat me to it. Really odd to use LMNT as your drink during a race.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Reason provided:
Double posted video
Yes it was very entertaining. It looks like Seth Demoor was the big winner this weekend, with the double win here. Sage Canaday was the biggest loser and he was not even running there.
Nobody ever said Seth was a bad runner at Pikes Peak. He did well at what we know he can do well at.
Sage, been following this thread, but first time commenting on. Looking at the archives, I'm just making some guesses at how the outlier could be explained away.
At one point I think you said 3:48 PPM average, but I don't think you can use averages for any comparison. Like he ran 3:48 in 2011 as a 47 year old. That probably doesn't have that much reference to what he ran in 1993 as a 29 year old. And then 2001 was a double, 2007 was a double too. That throws off an average PPM time.
In 1992, he summitted in 2:05 and came down in 1:38. That Ascent was over two minutes better than his previous best from 1990. And I assume he just blew up on the way down. Got close to nailing it, but didn't quite.
Came back in 1993 and ran up faster, and didn't blow up going down. The 1:15 down was 10 minutes better than what he ran four years earlier going down. That seems reasonable for improvement. And probably 1991 and maybe 1990 too were both descent blow ups. Something like Jim Walmsley's early misses at Western.
And then after 1993 he never ran hard down again. Just did the Ascent in 1994, nothing in 1995, nothing in 1996, just the Ascent in 1997. Marathon in 1998, five years after his record, but now into the Kilian mode, just doing enough to win.
Dakota Jones ran the descent in 2018 in 1:13 too. That's probably the only faster descent.
Been following along trying to decide whether I want to chime in or stay above the fray. But this was basically what I was going to say. Pikes is a course where experience knowing where to push and where to hold back really matters, both on the uphill and the downhill. It's totally reasonable that it took him a few tries to get it perfect, and then the next time he ran the full it was 5 years later and past his prime.
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