van aaken

That will be an interesting book even if there is no information about Kenny's training.

I hope it is more of training and aspects of running/racing as opposed to the social aspects of a very wonderful man.

vladimir wrote:

I hope it is more of training and aspects of running/racing as opposed to the social aspects of a very wonderful man.

Kenny Moore is a very good writer of stories, but I hope he delves into the training methods of Bowerman in detail. Kenny has first-hand experience of running for Bowerman at the U of O and beyond, so his own recollections of training might be highly valuable.

I have read this threat for quite some time and felt I should chime in and add my perspective on this. I'm a 27 year old male, ran in high school, college, focusing on the 800 - 1 mile. I've gotten tinman to coach me and have found that in the last few years that the long run is essential; I've gotten faster every year. I've been able to log pretty consistent mileage and have gotten at least 2 long runs per month during the last two years. I run pretty much as I feel and get in a few longer morning runs per week; I feel the morning runs ran without any food and little fluid consumption before the run has helped the metabolism and sparked me to burn fat more effecient. Currently, I've been running at least 30 miles every weekend for the past two months and have raced well from 10k - 34 miles; I never ran super fast but given my abscence from the track for the last 4 years; I was thrilled to run a 36:53 10k on a tough course with high wind. I feel most younger runners run too fast and dont run by feel. Most people are amazed to hear that I run some of my 10 mile days over 10 min mile pace; Good example here of my weekly training:

Monday - am 11 miles in 1:31.30; pm- 10 miles in 1:45

Tuesday - pm - 10 miles in 1:41

Wednesday - pm - 10 miles in 1:16.20

Thursday - am - 9 miles in 1:30, pm-10 miles in 1:46

Friday - pm - 9 miles in 1:27

Saturday - 10 miles in 1:44, 1 mile barefoot in grass, 11 total.

Sunday -i'm aiming for a 5-6 hour run relaxed over a tough course on mountain trails.

This training is much better than anything i've done before and I feel better doing this than any track workouts I did. I have to say that I suffered from a lack of motivation and a lack of will to train; something echoed in Mr. Van Aaken's book. I feel much better other than being a little sleepy. Some of my running buddies at races warm up much faster than I do, yet I beat them by 2-3 minutes in every race despite struggling to stay with them on a warm up.

Nick

Is he related to Clay?

Do you run much on trails, roads, tracks, or what? How often do you race? You must be quite efficient to be able to run at that pace and still keep a running motion. I cannot run any slower than 9:30 and still keep my form. I know it is a personal thing, but that is me. What are your goals- judging by your longer runs it appears you are looking at the marathon or above. Best of luck and keep us informed. Nice to see that between you and Mr Whitlock you guys average about 50 years of age.

Vladmir: Every picture I have of myself running, I have pretty good form: This set is from 2002 when I was heavy into speed work on the track:

http://www.brightroom.com/view_user_photo.asp?EVENTID=1414&PWD=&ID=1350572&FROM=photos&BIB=5332

http://www.brightroom.com/view_user_photo.asp?EVENTID=1414&PWD=&ID=1350521&FROM=photos&BIB=5332

This set is after a marathon in 2004, when I started lots more distance and d/c speed:

http://www.brightroom.com/view_user_photo.asp?EVENTID=4283&PWD=&ID=11820266&FROM=photos&BIB=128

http://www.brightroom.com/view_user_photo.asp?EVENTID=4283&PWD=&ID=11796940&FROM=photos&BIB=128

http://www.brightroom.com/view_user_photo.asp?EVENTID=4283&PWD=&ID=11790670&FROM=photos&BIB=128

and finally this set is after my 2nd ultra last year:

http://www.brightroom.com/view_user_photo.asp?EVENTID=7756&PWD=&ID=13324081&FROM=photos&BIB=170

http://www.brightroom.com/view_user_photo.asp?EVENTID=7756&PWD=&ID=13324083&FROM=photos&BIB=170

I train roads during the week and only get to the trails for my long runs on the weekends; when I was marathon training, I was doing my long runs on a smooth cinder trail; but last year started doing runs on tough trails. Yesterday I ran for 4:59.07 over a mountainous course that mimics a capital M and had a large amount of climbing and descending. The pace was not important but being consistent the entire run was my focus. During the run I ran with a bladder backpack and measured my fluid intake, it was only 27 degrees out with high wind; I drank exactly 32 oz of water; 10oz's of E-gel - carb type gel with lots of sodium; and half an organic bar. Felt fine with that.

Nick

Looking at the pictures it appears that you have dropped some weight. Is that so or just the pictures? Do you always keep track of fluids, etc of is this something new? What are your racing plans?

I've recently kept track of it; I get sick to my stomach often when running longer distances and found out its when I run long I get an electrolyte inbalance and found water with some salt tabs takes that away; my metabolism is very high; I am 6'1 and weigh 155lbs; I cannot go any lighter, i've tried and just cannot run well unless I eat the calories. I'm training for ultras specifically, and the goal this spring is a 100 miler in May over rocky terrain; and two 50 milers in the fall that are close together in dates - 3 weeks apart. I try to figure out what I eat and how I felt during the run; I have to ingest carbs, but not simple ones; I have found that even organic type food bars work extremely well.

I should have replied to this as well: I weigh about the same but my muscle tone has gone away; My clothes fit different and I can tell i'm leaner but my weight has never varried greatly; my entire family swears i've lost a ton of weight; I'm just skinnier but yet only 5lbs lighter.

I experimented with cliff shots on this past weekend's long run. I ate a strawberry cliff shot ( contains caffeine) every thirty minutes through the 2:30 mark of the run. Managed to run 24.48 in 3:31:13. About an 8:37 pace which is about a minute slower than my "reach goal" for the Country Music marathon.

Actually felt pretty good between 20-24.48. The weather was crisp, on or about 40 most of the run, which helps me a lot. It is anecdotal, but I think that the shots helped. I drank water every thirty minutes through the 2:30 mark and none thereafter.

The weekend before I fasted from Thursday night and ran a 3 hour run early Saturday morning. Only ran a bit over 191/3 miles.

asicsmiler- Your account of your running is very motivating. you seem to have figured a lot of the questions about effective training at an early age.

I was recently out of town this past week and trained with a group of runners and noticed how much faster people train than I do. We started talking about times during the runs and my recent times were much faster than theirs, yet I was going much faster than they were. We were running 5-6 mile am runs at 8:15 and under; pretty fast for 5:30am running; normally i'm 10min and over; it didn't bother me running quicker, but I notice that many train much faster than they should and dont put up the times that should correlate with that running speed. why is that?

I'm curious, and I really do mean curious and not critical, but if you're ok at an 8:15 pace, what's your rationale for running 10:00s?

As to your question, what sorts of times are these guys putting up?

HRE:

I typically run slow a couple of times per week to just ensure I do not overtrain; plus, I'm training for ultra's and long distances over tough trails, so the slower training actually benefits me and has not harmed my 'speed' in terms of road races, etc. I cannot turn out a 400 or 800 like I used to be able to; I was a 53 second 400 runner and a 2:01-2:04 800 guy pretty regular. My 10k is just as fast as it ever was, and actually ran a course PR in February on a difficult course that I have used a gauge the last 4 years. I run with a group in my town that runs slow and I enjoy running with them 2 - 3X per week; the other days, I run well below 8 min pace; a good example was that my neighbor took off way ahead of me; 15 min head start, I ran hard to try to catch him on our out and back 10 mile course; I was running 6:40 - 7:10 pretty effortless from the get go, after I caught him I settled into his 9:30 - 10:00 pace and proceeded to run barefoot in a park until I got my distance in; I was running barefoot around 7-7:30 pace feeling easy; my total for ten was 1:24 and actually was a bit of a fartlek, tempo type run. The times the others were putting up were barely breaking 3:40 for the marathon and their 10k was not under 40; whereas mine is usually under 37; I have warmed up with others before races and have noticed that they run much faster than me; the only thing different i've done that they dont do is run a couple of 400's faster than race pace; I usually scout out the 6 mile marker and spring the .2 to the finish 2-3X's.

Nick

As Nick's coach for a good while now, I feel compelled to chime in. Nick has shown very good discipline in doing things as prescribed. I've promoted the idea of doing key workouts should be the focus of one's schedule. Then, one should add in easy or slow distance work around those key workouts. This is particularly important for long distance runners. Nick has made his key workouts count, whether it was a quality workout or very long distance workout at modest pace. The other days he goes quite easily. Balance is the key which Nick has developed and used despite what others around him were doing. Others often run "harder" than Nick - but on race day he shines. He shows the courage to let others go when it is not a key workout. This takes maturity. Tinman

ASicsmiler and Tinman,

Thanks. Interesting stuff.

We both know that Nick is an exception. Not in his success with training/racing, but in listening to a coach. So many runners look at his training/racing and come to the conclusion that if thye train at 10:00 pace and getting 34:00 results then if they increase the pace they will get 31:00 results. Everything takes time and patience. One of the big keys is to remain motivated and injury free. Seems like Tinman and Nick hit upon a nice combination for them. My question for either or both. Is the coaching done via phone, email, mail or do you live close enough to meet?

I appreciate the comments. I've studied running theories all the way back to 1996 when I was in high school; I had a good college coach my Freshman year of college; he left the next year and the female who then coached us was horrible; nothing against her personally, but she didn't know theories; I always wanted to know what I was doing and why; what was the benefit down the road? Long story short; I ended up quitting the team in the spring of 2000, my senior year and started asking advice from people; I had met Julie Henner and she started giving me workouts via the internet; I actually PR'd in every event that season and ended up much happier running my schedule and knowing what I was doing and why - I can see why many superb guys turn pro and forego the college track stint.

I hurt my knee in 2002 and had to take about 9 months off; It ended up being a simple misalignment problem and my local chiropractor fixed me up; I started training from scratch and ran mileage only, as I felt. I felt great. I was unemployed for 3 months until I found something and I trained, trained, and trained. I was running 3-4 hours a day at easy paces and loved it. I realized quickly this was the way to run; especially during my time off as I read run to the top and Van Aaken's book. I ended up running crappy times until the fall; then I started flying and didn't really understand where to go and how to phase stuff in and out. I actually ran faster track times training long and easy; I contacted Tom (Tinman) via this message board and ended up corresponding with him frequently and I offered to pay for his services as he spends time giving good advice; I live in VA and Tinman out West. I give him good details of how i'm feeling and what my goals are and if they are too lofty, etc. Another good week of training for the 100 mile race:

Monday - 10 miles

Tuesday - am 9 miles, Pm - 8 miles on trails

Wednesday - am 6 miles, pm 4 miles

Thursday -am - 5 miles

Friday - pm - 9 miles

Saturday - am 11 miles

Sunday - am - 17.5 rugged miles over rocky trails (3:09), pm- 10 miles. 90 miles for the week - tough week given the fact I was out of town most of the week.

Congrats Nick and Tinman (Tom) on your succesful cooperation. I can sort of relate with Nick about the training paces and final results- every time I was passed by a breathless college guy or girl in the hills on the outskirts of Seattle I mumbled myself: "I guess you must be in sub 13:40 shape"... well, it never happened, because I knew most of those runners in that particular university, and none of them was running sub 14:30-40/17min. I was lucky that I was ineligible at that time already and did not have to deal with coaches whose philosophy is to "never run slowlier than xx per mile, because it's junk...".

However, I do have mechanical problems when running slowlier than 8-8:30/mile, unless it's a short (100m) shuffle between repeats. I had always considered myself as biomechanically quite efficient (despite a bouncy stride, which is little reduced after years of high mileage), yet I have problems at slowlier paces and at very fast paces (sub 15s/100m or 60s/400). Not that I am not able to run them, but are awkard and not smooth. So, the question is, did the slowlier pace came to you naturally, or did you have to force yourself to slow down and conciously altered your form? How about the faster speeds, did they feel natural to you when racing?