NY Times Article on Nike Oregon Project implicates Ritz and Farah

Karl Hungus wrote:

Terre earth wrote:

Rupp and Salazar are good catholics too.

Well that does it. I totally 100% believe them both and they are scholars and gentlemen.

"Good" and "Catholics" are contradictory terms.

casual obsever wrote:

Shall we not forget wrote:

I see Ritz as a hero in all of this. I don't see intent based on what we know.

Seriously? Do you really believe such an experienced professional athlete was unaware of WADA's list of "Prohibited Methods"?

He claimed that he was, but a) I don't believe him, and b) according to WADA, intent is not required to be found guilty of doping.

I have higher expectations of heroes.

I believe that he questioned it and was reinforced that it was okay from Alberto who said "I've received permission from USADA" which he later found out was B.S.

The article and Ritz himself make it pretty clear that he exceeded the IV limit.

That he hasn't been penalized, that it may not enhance performance, whether others use it, are all irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not WADA rules were broken.

That said, hopefully they don't penalize him due to his cooperation and the miscommunication from his POS coach.

joe rubix wrote:

The article and Ritz himself make it pretty clear that he exceeded the IV limit.

That he hasn't been penalized, that it may not enhance performance, whether others use it, are all irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not WADA rules were broken.

That said, hopefully they don't penalize him due to his cooperation and the miscommunication from his POS coach.

You can't eliminate penalties due to cooperation. You can reduce them by 1/2.

I don't think the coach's "miscommunication" is a cause for reducing penalties under the strict liability standard, but as I haven't reviewed all of the precedent cases and don't have access to all the facts, I wouldn't be 100% sure of that.

Hasn't Ritz had some fairly sizable breaks from competition? Did any of those last 6 months or more?

Is it possible he served an unannounced suspension already? I think it would be within USADA's discretion to do that.

Honestly that sounds like you are reading an awful lot into those e-mails. I mean, I can see what you are referring to, but it takes a whole lot of extrapolation to get where you are going.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Hasn't Ritz had some fairly sizable breaks from competition? Did any of those last 6 months or more?

Is it possible he served an unannounced suspension already? I think it would be within USADA's discretion to do that.

So, I don't have a subscription to tilastopja (sp?) but looking at results which are pretty easy to find, it appears that Ritz didn't run any races between dropping out of the Olympic trials (Feb. 13, 2016) and the Great North Run on Sept. 11, 2016. I then can't find any further races between then and May of this year. So there are two separate breaks of more than 6 months, assuming I didn't miss some results, which is possible.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

So, I don't have a subscription to tilastopja (sp?) but looking at results which are pretty easy to find, it appears that Ritz didn't run any races between dropping out of the Olympic trials (Feb. 13, 2016) and the Great North Run on Sept. 11, 2016. I then can't find any further races between then and May of this year. So there are two separate breaks of more than 6 months, assuming I didn't miss some results, which is possible.

He was second at Beach to Beacon in early August 2016.

He started but dropped out of NYC Marathon in early November 2016.

smd wrote:

Mr. Obvious wrote:

So, I don't have a subscription to tilastopja (sp?) but looking at results which are pretty easy to find, it appears that Ritz didn't run any races between dropping out of the Olympic trials (Feb. 13, 2016) and the Great North Run on Sept. 11, 2016. I then can't find any further races between then and May of this year. So there are two separate breaks of more than 6 months, assuming I didn't miss some results, which is possible.

He was second at Beach to Beacon in early August 2016.

He started but dropped out of NYC Marathon in early November 2016.

Thanks!

The dates between the Trials marathon and Beach to Beacon means that wouldn't work.

The dates between NYC and his recent Grand Rapids win would work (barely).

It is still a very speculative possibility.

Well USADA cannot act on what they "believe" or "suggest" what "likely" happened. That's the answer to one of your questions why USADA hasn't already acted on Ritz and Welling, and any of the remaining six athletes mentioned in February. I also don't think Magness is subject to this prohibited method restriction.Note that WADA's justification for banning infusions over 50ml as a method is

So the bad part of infusing L-Carnitine is not about the L-Carnitine, but the volume of liquid introduced into the blood.

It's not about performance enhancement, but about interfering with anti-doping testing.

yeah its speculation but salazar didnt show the entire conversation, meaning it could hold more juicy info, and the day after he posted the parts of the emails she cried her eyes out. so to me it means she really wanted to drop a huge bomb and he trump carded her big time.

so how could a few sentences and pieces of sentences destroy her to tears and keep her from dropping her info? well i think its cause they had an affair, and maybe even that child that adam thinks is his...anyone have pics to compare?

mark b wrote:

Having just read the article it is now clearer than clear that, even if nothing in direct breach of the rules was going on, the general approach of Salazar and NOP was such that no runner with any conscience or self respect would want to be linked in any way with the programme.

Much of the details in the article apparently come from sworn statements; if this is true then these revelations cannot be dismissed as something said by individuals who have a personal axe to grind with Salazar, NOP or Nike. As a Brit I look forward to the day when UK Athletics breaks off all connection with Salazar and Nike.

Get real. The Brits have the Enabler Lord Coe.

They have Sir Dave Brailsford.

You have marginally illegal Sky cycling.

Stop being a hypocrite. You guys give knighthoods to cheats.

i agree with spencer wrote:

again you guys have this all wrong

adam prob didnt like the idea of doing the injections and tried to do without and pissed off alberto, and subsequently got injured and retired. meanwhile alberto and kara were having an affair. she also probably doesnt really know what she was getting but she knows it wasnt good.

she wants to spill beans on all the injections and things she saw but alberto blackmailed her hard. how? did you guys not read the small bits alberto showed of their email exchanges? it sounded pretty much like affair material. he told her "look if you try to expose me and NOP, nike will ruin you like they did to lance, and i will tell adam that he isnt the father of your child, and how we had a 7 year affair

You are quoting Salazar as if he said that, which clearly if he had this board would have gone absolutely nuts over such drama.

A man of his age who has been taking testosterone as long as he has would be extremely unlikely to be able to get her pregnant considering exogenous testosterone has been shown to be a somewhat effective form of birth control.

Too funny.

Dumb arse he said that before they tested for EPO!

I'm sorry--it is Article 13 of a WADA document. But any documents notwithstanding, it would be truly insane if no matter how one ingested a banned substance--even if it were forced down one's throat--that one was guilty if one tested positively.https://www.wada-ama.org/sites/default/files/resources/files/wada-reference-guide-to-2015-code.pdfGo to page 19 where you will find a link to Article 13.But my broader point, which concerns Ritz, is this. We have an athlete who is taking a substance that is not banned, whose coach is telling him that he has approval from USADA to follow the protocol they are following, and it turns out (I'm speculating a bit here because although I've asked this a few times already on this thread no one has confirmed this) it's a substance that does not improve endurance performance (because if it does, and it's not detectable, countless people would be taking it). Now, in most particulars, this is no different than taking a supplement, which many endurance athletes take. So given these particulars, to deride and defame someone and call him "a doper," and imply he's trying to game the system strikes me as beyond the pale. If one wants to get one's panties in a bunch, maybe we should focus on making sure that those athletes that are the most successful actually are tested out of competition. On what I think is a related matter, 19 of the top 20 men's 10000 meter times were run over a decade ago. 33 of the top 37 men's 5000 meter times were run over a decade ago. Perhaps athletes were better than--trained better, ate better, were better nourished, rested better, ran on better tracks. Or perhaps there was rampant doping.Good chatting with you.

Mr. Obvious wrote:

Montesquieu wrote:

I could be wrong, but I believe Article 13 of CAS has elements covering this.

What is Article 13 of CAS?

Do you mean the WADA code?

I can't find any article 13 of CAS and article 13 of the WADA code doesn't seem to be on point.

MurphMurph wrote:

5 years into a USADA investigation with the help of the FBI. We have gone from accusing NOP of giving testosterone to a 16 yr old kid to now trying to prove they took more that 50ml of an amino acid...meanwhile the NOP continues to win and athletes continue to join the team. Either they are paying off USADA/FBI or we might have to come to grips with the fact that they just aren't cheating...

This...

But you can't say that it's crazy to call Ritz a doper based on what has come to light. You can just try to muddy it by saying that you don't think it enhanced his performance and that his coach told him it would be okay.

troy st wrote:

But you can't say that it's crazy to call Ritz a doper based on what has come to light. You can just try to muddy it by saying that you don't think it enhanced his performance and that his coach told him it would be okay.

Exactly. Thank you.

It is also worth noting that his coach told Ritz this 4 hour long infusion would enhance his performance, which is why they were doing it.

I wonder what else was in that bag, which apparently led to a drastic performance enhancement in Magness' case.