Howman was being conservative. He knows the lowest figure is unarguable but that doping is likely also to be much higher because tests catch only a fraction. The athlete surveys suggest many more and so do other informed estimates from insiders. An exact figure for doping cannot be ascertained because very few are actually caught.
You talk of "anonymous nobodies" - like Armstrong, Jones, Johnson, Bonds, Ramzi and Kiprop - and Houlihan - as well as the numerous Kenyan distance runners who have been championship medallists as well as world record-holders. It simply shows that doping will be found amongst the very best in sports. Of course. That's how you get to be the best.
If an athlete "believed in training and talent alone" then they are conceding to those with equal talent and training who also dope. No athlete who wants to be the best will concede being second-best if they can avoid it. That is why doping in sports is a billion dollar black-market industry.
That you think athletes looking for every advantage they can is "weak-minded" shows you know nothing about what it takes to get to the top in sport - or in anything. They don't hold to your antiquated values - and never did.
This is just you repeating your unsupported fantasies.
They failed to persuade before and remain unpersuasive. But you are entitled to your opinions, even if baseless.
You are not the magic genie granting the wish.
As I said - you are the Pollyanna of doping deniers.
Mine will not be a popular choice on this board, but I would go with Antibo, not only for himself, but because I despise what happened in Italy in the '80s (I'm Italian, btw), with state sanctioned doping.
If the great hero of that generation (Antibo) is shown to be dirty (and well, given his instant surge from nobody to world beater to again nobody in a matter of a couple of years, saying he is suspect is a huge understatement), and it is shown that he was covered up by national federation, then it means that also his training buddies (including the one that in 1984 self-claimed he used emodpoing while it was not yet forbidden) had gills as well.
I'm pretty sure like 99% people already assume she was using but proving it could at least get the WR off the record books I suppose.
From Outsider online,
"Koch, who never failed a drug test and still vehemently maintains her innocence, was implicated when a molecular biologist from Heidelberg named Werner Franke uncovered an official doping protocol from the Stasi (the East German secret police) revealing that a number of athletes, including Koch, were systematically being administered various dosages of the banned steroid Oral-Turinabol. These revelations were detailed in a book, authored by Franke’s wife, Brigitte Berendonk. When the book was published, Koch threatened to sue. She never did."
As I said - you are the Pollyanna of doping deniers.
Armstronglivs,
We went back and forth in a thread asking "IF" there is one clean world record, which one would it be?
Your position, as I recall, is that NONE of them are clean, so there's no point to the question.
My position, in answering the question as it was posed, was that IF there is a clean record it would be the pole vault record.
I answer the question in this thread with that in mind; I'd love to know if Mondo Duplantis is and has been clean.
Your stating the question as you have, by emphasising IF there is a clean world record, is an acknowledgement that the chances are there probably isn't.
We went back and forth in a thread asking "IF" there is one clean world record, which one would it be?
Your position, as I recall, is that NONE of them are clean, so there's no point to the question.
My position, in answering the question as it was posed, was that IF there is a clean record it would be the pole vault record.
I answer the question in this thread with that in mind; I'd love to know if Mondo Duplantis is and has been clean.
Your stating the question as you have, by emphasising IF there is a clean world record, is an acknowledgement that the chances are there probably isn't.
I think that it is very possible that there is not. I am, however, trying to represent the prior discussion that we had on this (which was based on "IF").
I'll stand by my position, without rehashing all the reasons for it, that IF there is a clean record it COULD BE the pole vault, and I would want to know whether Duplantis ever doped to answer that question.
I have almost no faith (and in many cases zero faith) in other records.
In my opinion, many of the names mentioned in this thread are incredibly obvious dopers.
Farah and Rupp are good picks. Farah's emergence later in his career and insane range certainly puts him in question. Rupp's outlier US performances during his time always raised questions. Both of them having association with Salazar and NOP raises questions as well.
However, my personal pick would be Siffan Hassan. I just HAVE to know if her range is real. If I knew she was fully clean, I might be willing to call her the best runner of all time. Any gender. But her ability to double (and triple) at the highest of levels certainly raises questions.
We went back and forth in a thread asking "IF" there is one clean world record, which one would it be?
Your position, as I recall, is that NONE of them are clean, so there's no point to the question.
It's ridiculous to believe all WRs are dirty. Jonathan Edwards for one, there are many more.
That was the topic in the other thread. I chose the pole vault as my "If any are clean, which one?" event. I think the triple jump is a fine choice, and I would imagine that some of the reasons for picking it would be the same as I applied to the pole vault. (It isn't aerobic, the power requirements are humanly possible, less people do it so it might not take drugs to be the best ever, etc.).
Armstronglivs is pretty solidly in the "they are all doped" camp. But he can speak for himself.
The first European Wanda Diamond League meet of the year is today in Oslo as the Bislett Games are taking place. The men's 5000, 400h and 1500 have me super pumped.
- Assume the public knows you received this power and HAS TO accept what you find out (and you are required to truthfully share it). Basically, these message boards can't be full of posts saying you're lying or "how can we trust the magic actually worked?"
- You would also learn how each instance of PEDs got in athlete X's body (for the cases like Shelby's, Gatlin, Ajee Wilson, etc.), and where they got it from. This could potentially expose a dirty coach / agent as well.
- You can pick an active or retired athlete.
- WA and any other organizations are still free to do whatever they want after learning this information. They will also treat it as fact.
Curious how many people here would use this power to go after something they think was doping vs. try to prove their favorite athlete was clean? Keep in mind, the answer you get might be the opposite of what you were hoping for!
Jakob as I think he'd show the most about the sport, though personally I'd like to see Rudisha to see if it's pure talent / genetics or dope.
If he's clean, then El Guerrouj / Lagat* might be clean, and because I believe he could currently run under 12:40, it means Cheptegei / Bekele / etc could be clean too.
* Maybe it'd be the case that top 0.001% genetics East Africans would have clean results that make them look doping.
